www.photomacrography.net :: View topic - Nikon/Canon live view implemetation. Vibration, flash.
www.photomacrography.net Forum Index
An online community dedicated to the practices of photomacrography, close-up and macro photography, and photomicrography.
Photomacrography Front Page Amateurmicrography Front Page
Old Forums/Galleries
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Nikon/Canon live view implemetation. Vibration, flash.
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.photomacrography.net Forum Index -> Macro and Micro Technique and Technical Discussions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Charles Krebs



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 5805
Location: Issaquah, WA USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:43 pm    Post subject: Nikon/Canon live view implemetation. Vibration, flash. Reply with quote

It's come up a few times now in different threads (most recently in the thread of the cool-looking auto stacking rail. It was discussed here as well. Since live-view offers some real benefits for macro/micro work, and with SLRs vibration can be a significant issue it's good to know how it's been implemented in these cameras. (Unfortunately I can't speak to other brands like Pentax, Olympus, Sony since I don't use them).

There still seems to be some confusion about what is going on in these cameras when used in live-view. I'm about equally invested in Nikon and Canon so this is a practical usage concern for me, not a brand loyalty issue. (Hopefully this thread will address the practical considerations and not get into a "Ford/Chevy" type thing). Not all my bodies have live view, but I do have a Nikon D300 and a Canon 50D with this feature. The way live view is implemented may or may not have an effect depending on the way you are working, but for me the Canon implementation has made a huge difference in at least one specific area -- a microscope mounted camera. Finally I can attach a camera to a microscope directly and not worry about shutter or mirror vibration in continuous light exposures. (This is documented to some degree here.). It's also changed the way I do much of the 2X-20X table-top shots. I find myself using continuous light much more often, since I no longer need to worry about camera induced vibration.

In the Nikon live-view function, there is no way to alter this sequence of mechanical events when a picture is taken in the live view mode (at least on my D300. If I’m missing something please let me know!):
When in live view and an exposure initiated...

1) Mechanical second shutter curtain closes
2) Mirror-drops down
3) Mirror flips up
4) Mechanical first shutter curtain opens to begin exposure
(if the exposure delay is set to “ON” in the custom setting d9 there will be a pause of 1 second after the mirror flips up before the first shutter curtain opens)

To end the exposure the second shutter curtain closes and the mirror drops. The shutter release needs to be pressed again to re-enter the live view mode.

So there are 4 mechanical motions occurring before the second shutter curtain closes to end the exposure.

There is a flash sync signal sent during this sequence, so any flash, Nikon or otherwise, can be used.

(Side note: Other than the one second delay mentioned, the self-timer can't be used together with live-view)

For Canon there are some variations depending on the body. One “group” contains the 40D, 50D, 5DII, and 7D. The other is the 450D, 500D, 1000D.

With the 40D, 50D, 5DII, 7D group…

In live view you have a choice of “regular” live-view, and also “silent-mode" live-view. (If Quick mode AF auto-focus is used then the mirror/shutter sequence is the same as the Nikon listed above, with the exception that the cameras returns to live view at the end of the exposure)

But if manual focus is used (or the slower “Live mode” contrast AF mode is used) the sequences are as follows…

Regular “Live View” Mode:
1) Mechanical second shutter curtain closes
2) Mechanical first shutter curtains opens to begin exposure

So there are 2 mechanical motions occurring before the second shutter curtain closes to end the exposure. Neither are mirror motions.

To end the exposure the second shutter curtain closes.

There is a flash sync signal sent during this sequence. Any flash, Canon or otherwise, can be used. (If E-TTL flash metering is used the mirror will cycle to pick up the metering pre-flash. If the flash is set to manual then there is no metering pre-flash and the mirror will not cycle).

At the completion of the exposure the mirror does not cycle down/up. The mechanical first shutter curtain opens and the camera automatically returns to live-view. (Exception: on the 40D a shutter "half-press" is needed to return to live-view)

Silent-mode Live-View (This is what I use when no flash is to be used):


1) The sensor is “cleared” electronically and the exposure begins (no mechanical first shutter curtain is used, it remains open).

There are no mechanical motions occurring before the second shutter curtain closes to end the exposure. The result is minimal vibration.

To end the exposure the mechanical second shutter curtain closes.

After exposure completion, the mechanical first shutter curtains re-opens and camera returns to live-view viewing. The mirror never moves.

However, there is no flash sync signal sent during this sequence. Flash is not compatible with the “electronic” first shutter curtain (EFSC).

If a Canon dedicated flash is used, the camera senses it, and will automatically revert to the “normal” mode. In this case if E-TTL flash metering is used the mirror will cycle to pick up the metering pre-flash. If the flash is set to manual then there is no metering pre-flash and the mirror will not cycle.

If a non-Canon dedicated flash is connected to the PC outlet or the flash shoe it will not fire since the camera can’t “sense” the flash and stays in the “silent” mode (using the EFSC) where no sync signal is sent. (Turning off "silent mode" reverts to using a mechanical first shutter curtain with sync signal so any flash can be used).

The second Canon group (450D, 500D, 1000D) operates by default using the EFSC. That means that when a live-view exposure is initiated the sequence is similar to the “silent mode” above.
1) )The sensor is “cleared” electronically and the exposure begins. (Nothing mechanical appears to move. Curiously there is a small audible “squeek” at this time with these bodies, but no noticeable vibration)

To end the exposure the mechanical second shutter curtain closes.

With these cameras, once an exposure is completed, the mirror will cycle and the first shutter curtains re-opens and camera returns automatically to live-view viewing. (The reason the mirror need not cycle after exposure with the 50D, 5DII, and 7D is that there are two separate motors to control the shutter and mirror, while the others use a single motor to control both.)

With this second group, if a Canon dedicated flash is used, the camera senses it, and uses the mechanical first shutter curtain instead of the EFSC. (Since I don’t have one of these bodies I don’t know it there is a difference in mirror action if the flash is set for E-TTL or “manual" as described for the 50D above).

If a non-Canon dedicated flash is connected to the PC outlet or the flash shoe it will not fire since the camera can’t “sense” the flash and uses the EFSC which does not provide a flash sync signal. This could obviously be a problem if it you want to use live view with a non-Canon flash with these bodies.
_________________
http://www.krebsmicro.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
AndrewC



Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 1436
Location: Belgium

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't endorse this at all, and haven't tried it on my camera, but I recall reading somewhere a trick for Nikon cameras with Live View. You start LiveView without a lens mounted and when the mirror is up tape it in place. Mount a lens and shoot away with a motion less mirror. You probably get an error message but the camera shoots (I think that there is a sensor that detects if the mirror is blocked). I've spent a few minutes searching but can't find the original post.

You still have the mechanical shutter curtains moving but no mirror slam. Point being that if Nikon could be persuaded to be creative with their firmware, or perhaps if someone spends some time with the SDK, you could improve things a lot. Ditto for Canon.

Then again, the Frankencamera open source project at Stanford looks more interesting every day ! http://www-graphics.stanford.edu/projects/camera-2.0/

... as do the much rumoured EVIL cameras that Nikon and Canon may release soon.
_________________
rgds, Andrew

"Is that an accurate dictionary ? Charlie Eppes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
morfa



Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Posts: 556
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thank you for this Charles!

So, just to make completely sure I understand how Canon and Nikon compares in these stacking/Live view/MLU aspects:

Natural light: Canon's "silent mode" live view is the best available option: minimal vibrations.

Manual flash: Canon's "regular mode" is the best since it allows multiple exposures without mirror slamming: less vibrations and fewer button-presses.

TTL flash: Canon is a little bit worse or a little bit better than Nikon depending on your priorities (less vibrations or fewer button presses). Both slam the mirror prior to exposure. Nikon lets you add a one second delay between mirror-up and first curtain but needs an additional button press to reactivate to Live view. Canon (50D, 5DII and 7D) defaults back to Live-view without button presses.
_________________
John Hallmén
http://johnhallmen.se
http://flickr.com/johnhallmen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
lauriek
Site Admin


Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 2404
Location: South East UK

PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another word of thanks for the detailed write up Charles! As I'm currently looking for a body purely to sit on my rig and was under the impression I needed a 50d to get the best LV implementation but would much prefer to try to grab a lightly used 40d...
_________________
Flickr | www.laurieknight.net | Blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Charles Krebs



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 5805
Location: Issaquah, WA USA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

Good summary.

I might add to the mix that if flash is to be used Nikon has a nice feature. That is the ability to set "second curtain sync" on the camera body itself, and have that operative through both the hot-shoe and the PC outlet. I'm not sure about the new 7D, but on other Canon bodies a Canon flash is needed to accomplish this. With my Nikon D300 on a table-top setup I often use a Lumedyne manual flash system, and find it very effective (in regards to completely avoiding vibration) to work with a longer exposure (about 1 sec or so) with the flash at the end of that exposure time. With my Canon bodies I need to have a Canon speed-light attached and set to a low manual level and trip the Lumedyne system via a slave. It's an added hassle. (Nikon's has had the edge in flash implementation. It's only starting with the 7D that Canon is getting similar versatility)

Laurie... the 40D is a very nice camera! I think the really big "plus" you would find is the ability, if desired, to use continuous light without camera vibration concerns. There are good points to using either flash or continuous light. But certainly, unless you have a flash system with accurate modeling lights, it's much easier to see the effect of lighting and light positions with continuous light. And with these tiny subjects sometimes a very slight change in a light can make a huge difference in the overall lighting effect.
_________________
http://www.krebsmicro.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PaulFurman



Joined: 24 Oct 2009
Posts: 595
Location: SF, CA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, OK so the Canon silent mode doesn't even have shutter vibrations. Nice. I have a Nikon D700 and the 1 sec delay mode works fine but I don't use live view for stacks, only for framing and initial setup where it is extremely useful. Two clicks would get tedious very quickly trying to use live view. I use the delay mode in regular shooting mode, that seems plenty of time to dampen mirror vibrations. Live view is not nice to use in this implementation except for framing macros on a tripod/stand and for fine focusing on a tripod zoomed in. It would be nice if I could zoom in all the way in live view for focusing.

I was curious about the Panasonic GF1 (micro 4/3) but then read reviews saying what a nice satisfyingly loud shutter sound it made. Sad

The old Nikon D70 (I think) has and alternate electronic shutter but only for high speed flash synch and it has no mirror lockup.

I'm almost tempted to tape up the mirror like that. It's just painful slapping the mirror around so much for no reason and will wear out the 'shutter' as I have done with my D200 doing time lapse movies. It was repairable for a few hundred $ but still a bummer. Holding the mirror up requires continuous battery power, that's why the mirror lockup for cleaning isn't available unless the battery is fully charged.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tardigrade37



Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Posts: 134

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Nikon/Canon live view implemetation. Vibration, flash. Reply with quote

Charles Krebs wrote:

If a non-Canon dedicated flash is connected to the PC outlet or the flash shoe it will not fire since the camera can’t “sense” the flash and uses the EFSC which does not provide a flash sync signal. This could obviously be a problem if it you want to use live view with a non-Canon flash with these bodies.

Hi Charles et al., thanks for this breakdown, it's incredibly informative. I am still in the process of getting flash set up on my microscope (I think I've been mumbling about this for about a year Confused ) and I seem to be stuck in this last camp - a 500D with a non-Canon flash. Could I just use the on board flash to trigger a slave for the flash connected to the scope? I love the live view feature and want to use flash with it, but I don't want to hack apart an expensive Canon Speedlight.
Thanks again!
Chris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Charles Krebs



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 5805
Location: Issaquah, WA USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris,
Quote:
Could I just use the on board flash to trigger a slave for the flash connected to the scope?


Yes... (with some considerations)

The best way is with an external Canon speedlight that can be set to "Manual". This avoids the pre-flash that is used for E-TTL flash metering (and will prematurely fire most flash slaves). As I mentioned above, with the 50D, manual flash also avoids the mirror motion since there is no need to have the mirror down to pick up a metering pre-flash. (Again, I don't know if this is also the case with the 500D... my guess is that is would be... perhaps someone that has this camera can confirm this). Generally this external speedlight can be used at a very low power setting as well. Unfortunately the small built-in flash can't be set to manual... it's always E-TTL. I suppose it could be used with a slave unit that ignores the metering pre-flash, but it would likely fire at full power every time (since the meter doesn't see the pre-flash) and the mirror would also cycle (looking to "see" the pre-flash).

A few years back I used this method (Canon Speedlite on a low manual setting) for some time to trip the (275 volt trigger voltage!) optically slaved Vivitar 283 microscope flash before I got a Wein Safe-sync. If you have a Canon speedlite that can be set to "manual" it works fine.
_________________
http://www.krebsmicro.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
rf-design



Joined: 11 Mar 2010
Posts: 2
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here I wil report my findings of the partial camera mass movement triggering vibration for the

Fuji S9500
Fuji S100
Sigma SD14

Before I report my findings from this afternoon there was the poposal that the mirror lockup would produce no vibration. And as understand that a specific Canon does not have a first shutter curtain. So electron collection is startet electronical. That is really new to me but the acoustics of the Fuji's suggest that this not rare.

Both Fuji's have a very silent central shutter and is one argument for using bridge cameras with diopters. The shutter movement could not be sensed but if i place my ear direct on the body I have made an interesting observation. If the working aperature is equal to to the F-stop of the objective there is practical no noise at the beginning of the exposure (checked with 1s). If I change the working F-stop significant the noise change. So the noise probably is the aperture control. But at the end of the exposure the noise is noticeable louder than the suspected aperature control. So it seems that the Fuji, which have Liveview natural, start exposure w/o mechanical movements. Beside that this is not senseable in comparison to the Sigma.

The Sigma SD14 have mirror lockup control which allows to first lift the mirror and then after second shutter release press there is a senseable movement in the camera, which is I guess ony 20% of the mirror effect. But this movement is at the beginning of the exposure. I had a doubt that this came from the objective but deataching the lens this produce the same movement. The Sigma lenses at Sigma are complete electronic controlled. So I guess the SD14 uses 2 shutter curtains and the start of the exposure is mechanical controlled. That giving a disadvantage against sensors which allows be both mechanical and electronic exposure started.

It will be interessting to see how the Panasonic and the Samsung doing the shutter and sensor exposure control.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
enricosavazzi



Joined: 21 Nov 2009
Posts: 1225
Location: Borgholm, Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulFurman wrote:

The old Nikon D70 (I think) has and alternate electronic shutter but only for high speed flash synch and it has no mirror lockup.


It does, sort of, but not exactly - The D70 and D70s have a mechanical shutter with a rather slow fastest speed (1/125 s if I remember correctly). Shorter exposure times are obtained with an electronic shutter, but always in connection with the mechanical shutter, not as an alternative. This was only meant as a way to save on the cost of a high-speed mechanical shutter.

Some of the other consumer (D+ two digits) Nikon models may have a similar shutter, but I am not positive about this.
_________________
--ES
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Peter M. Macdonald



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 174
Location: Berwickshire, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone have any idea if the vibrationless mode is available on the EOS 1D Mk IV? Quick mode seems to be available, according to the PDF of the instruction manual on the Canon website. But the description of how it takes the photo once the release is activated seems to suggest that there is plenty of mechanical action involved before as well as after the exposure.

Best,

Peter
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Charles Krebs



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 5805
Location: Issaquah, WA USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the "electronic first shutter curtain", (which is the feature that is so helpful at minimizing vibrations) is not on the new 1D IV.



Edit... I found where I had seen this... from the Canon "White Paper" on the 1D IV, page 64:
Quote:
A silent shooting feature with the electronic 1st-curtain is not provided.


http://www.usa.canon.com/uploadedimages/FCK/Image/White%20Papers/EOS-1D%20Mark%20IV%20WP1.pdf
_________________
http://www.krebsmicro.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
rjlittlefield
Site Admin


Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 20292
Location: Richland, Washington State, USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A silent shooting feature with the electronic 1st-curtain is not provided.

How depressing!

This review says the same thing.

On the bright side (from a personal standpoint), the review also contains a table that says the shutter in my T1i is rated at 100,000 exposures. That's certainly not as good as the 300,000 for the 1D, but better than I had feared.

--Rik
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Peter M. Macdonald



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 174
Location: Berwickshire, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charles,

Many thanks for that. Pity that Canon's self styled "flagship" body does not have their flagship feature for macro and micro photography.

Peter
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Charles Krebs



Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 5805
Location: Issaquah, WA USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair, it is considered their "sports/action" camera, so I would anticipate that it's a feature fewer potential users would make use of. Still, I hope they keep it on other new models.
_________________
http://www.krebsmicro.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.photomacrography.net Forum Index -> Macro and Micro Technique and Technical Discussions All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group