LED's

Have questions about the equipment used for macro- or micro- photography? Post those questions in this forum.

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augusthouse
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Post by augusthouse »

Eric F wrote:
Do you think these diffuser cylinders have gel coatings on the inside?
Not so much "gel coatings"; but rather, gel inserts; I can't say for certain. The cylinder could be used as a holder and an appropriate or desirable gel could be inserted as required.

I had wondered what Visionary Digital were using; one day another member mentioned Rosco gels during the course of a discussion and to use an English idiom 'the penny dropped'.

http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/i ... opped.html
What is the meaning of this phrase and where did it originate from? "The Penny Dropped"

It means that (finally) you have understood something, you have made the connection, "light has dawned". The image is of a stuck slot machine; you put in your penny but nothing happens, and you have to thump the machine and rattle it till "the penny drops" and out pops your ticket, your chocolate bar, whatever.
I often hear such pennies dropping. :D

Craig

*edited typo
Last edited by augusthouse on Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To use a classic quote from 'Antz' - "I almost know exactly what I'm doing!"

NikonUser
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Post by NikonUser »

Quote: "What is the meaning of this phrase and where did it originate from? "The Penny Dropped"

It means that (finally) you have understood something, you have made the connection, "light has dawned". The image is of a stuck slot machine; you put in your penny but nothing happens, and you have to thump the machine and rattle it till "the penny drops" and out pops your ticket, your chocolate bar, whatever."


I really don't think that is where the phrase originated. In the old days, when I was a lad in England, public toilets charged 1 penny to enter a "private stall". One placed a penny in the slot on the door, but you did not try to open the door until you heard the penny drop into the collecting bin. Moving the door handle down before the penny dropped meant you lost your penny and the door did not open.
NU.
student of entomology
Quote – Holmes on ‘Entomology’
” I suppose you are an entomologist ? “
” Not quite so ambitious as that, sir. I should like to put my eyes on the individual entitled to that name.
No man can be truly called an entomologist,
sir; the subject is too vast for any single human intelligence to grasp.”
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr
The Poet at the Breakfast Table.

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Eric F
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LED's

Post by Eric F »

Ah, yes....my own penny just dropped! An insert would be especially appropriate for the inside of a cylinder: very simple & easy to do.

Craig: I've looked over the Rosco site some more; such an abundance of gel variations! Among the Cinegel group, the Reflection series (#3801-40) look potentially very good for a mirrored finish inside; just not sure if they act like a diffuser from the outside(?) For a straight-sided surface (inside of a cylinder, or a flat-sided funnel), an insert is excellent. However, if you had a curved surface (like the inside of a parabolic dome), then covering that gets very complicated with an insert; for that, you would really need something that starts as a liquid, then solidifies into a hard substance. Do you have any ideas as to which of their products might be best suited for a potential diffuser (outside) --> reflector (inside) type action -- as an insert?

Another question: What is the profile of a "Lieberkühn Reflector" like? (For example, an Olympus OM one.) I've never seen one 'in person'; from the internet, I can't tell if the inside surface is flat or curved. If these reflectors are flattened funnels, it would make their fabrication much easier. (Another thing I don't know...how well do Lieberkühns actually work to disperse reflected light for photography?)

Eric

augusthouse
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Post by augusthouse »

Eric,
Do you have any ideas as to which of their products might be best suited for a potential diffuser (outside) --> reflector (inside) type action -- as an insert?
That would be magic :D

The only gel in the Cinegal range you've mentioned (#3801-40) that might be of use as a diffuser, with some reflective properties is #3809 (RoscoScrim - reduces light level by two stops with no color temperature shift). The remainder of those referred to are what I would class as reflectors only.

For use as a diffusion material, I'd be looking at Diffusion Media #3006 -3015 in the Rosco Cinegel range (this is based on a quick look through the Cinegel swatchbook.)

Let's separate diffuser from reflector.

The choice of diffuser material will determine the amount of light and the quality of that light occurring 'inside'. Light is directed onto the surface of the diffuser from 'outside'. This creates an even, diffused lighting. Controlling Specular reflection and shadows are another role of a diffuser.

Bouncing light off a reflector and then onto the subject is a different matter, yet the end result can be similar.

The OM Lieberkühn Reflectors have a brushed aluminium finish and act, somewhat, like a mini studio umbrella, bouncing soft, diffused light onto the subject. The OM versions were designed for use with particular lenses in the OM Macro Group. They are not flat, from memory they are slightly angled by about 15 degrees; the light they receive doesn't bounce straight back down. The last diagram on the link below is an example of a Lieberkühn Reflector in action.
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/ha ... index2.htm

Craig
To use a classic quote from 'Antz' - "I almost know exactly what I'm doing!"

rjlittlefield
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Post by rjlittlefield »

Eric F wrote:Another question: What is the profile of a "Lieberkühn Reflector" like? (For example, an Olympus OM one.) I've never seen one 'in person'; from the internet, I can't tell if the inside surface is flat or curved. If these reflectors are flattened funnels, it would make their fabrication much easier. (Another thing I don't know...how well do Lieberkühns actually work to disperse reflected light for photography?)
As far as I can tell, traditional Lieberkühn reflectors are parabolic and fairly shiny, designed to focus a distant compact source into a small spot of light. The diagram at http://www.alanwood.net/photography/oly ... ctors.html seems to show the Olympus design as being a straight-sided funnel, but the diagram is too low resolution to be sure.

In any event, the critical function of the reflector for most macro work is to illuminate the subject with light that appears to originate (is reflected) from close to the lens.

If the surface of the reflector is itself diffusive, even a matte white, then it will do that job OK no matter what its shape is. Of course there will be significant light loss with a diffusive reflector. But in these days of bright flashes and good sensors, it's quite possible that losing even several stops wouldn't really be a problem.

Try the matte side of some aluminum foil, or even a white card, and see if it meets your needs.

--Rik

lauriek
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Post by lauriek »

The OM Lieberkühn reflector for the 38mm lens appears to be a shallow flat sided funnel...

Image

They are designed to match the specific lens, there were two OM reflectors, for the 38mm and the 20mm bellows macro lenses, I would assume the angle of the cone would vary to match the focal length of the lens.

I've just put something flat on a 'radius' of the reflector and it appears to be flat, if it has any curvature in that dimension then it's extremely small.

Eric F
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LED's

Post by Eric F »

Thanks Craig, Rik & Laurie,

I think I understand the gel setup at Rosco a little better now; seems best to concentrate strictly on the diffusers between #3006 -15 -- as Craig said. Trying to incorporate both the diffusion & reflection functions into a single material seems impractical at present. (Though, this is what I've sort of done -- primitively -- with a clear dome lightly sprayed white on the inside. For diffusion -- many alternatives might be better, especially including some of these Cinegels; for reflection, the amount of light -- achieved when the LED light strikes the thin paint at an oblique angle -- works only at the modeling light level.)

Thanks for the info & photo of a Lieberkühn Reflector; I'd like to find one of those some day! I'm thinking now that a good setup to experiment with is a two-part product: a cylindrical plastic tube diffuser, with a separate Lieberkühn-like reflector placed on top. It should be easier to boost the performance of each phase with two separate parts. The reflector could be plastic too, with maybe a textured base paint (pebbly?) covered with either white or silver paint.

Eric

elf
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Post by elf »

How does the full setup of a Lieberkühn reflector differ from a darkfield setup?

rjlittlefield
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Post by rjlittlefield »

How does the full setup of a Lieberkühn reflector differ from a darkfield setup?
Short answer, you can think of a Lieberkühn reflector as being "a ringlight before they had ringlights".

The long answer depends on exactly what you mean by "darkfield setup".

"Darkfield" often refers to a setup where light striking the subject comes primarily from below/behind but to the side, angled such that undeflected light does not reach the sensor. In this case, light eventually reaching the sensor gets there primarily by refraction or diffusion from the body of the subject.

In microscopy, "darkfield epi-illumination" describes light striking the subject primarily from above/in-front, around the imaging lens but not through it, rather like a ringlight. In this case, light eventually reaching the sensor gets there primarily by reflection from the surface of the subject.

You might want to think of these two cases as being endpoints on some continuum. At one extreme, light comes from behind and undeflected light just barely misses the sensor, while at the other extreme, light comes from the front, starting just barely outside the lens. In many practical setups, particularly those involving some form of light tents, light comes from both in front and behind the specimen, and gets redirected toward the sensor through some combination of refraction, diffusion, and reflection by the subject.

The Olympus Lieberkühn reflectors are designed to take light coming from below that missed the subject, and reflect it back toward the subject from the front, in a broad area around the imaging lens. If simultaneously a "darkfield stop" is used to prevent undeflected light from reaching the lens, then the illumination pattern is similar to what you would get with a ringlight or a circular diffuser wrapped around the lens and illuminated from the lens side, with a dark background behind the subject.

Does this help?

--Rik

elf
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Post by elf »

Yes, it does help. If instead of a cylinder, a parabola was used, the light could be focused at different spots on the parabola to better define the subject and it would also be easier to block the light from directly hitting the sensor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Parab ... y_line.svg

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