Hi all,
This item is not mine, but I came across it online and thought I would post it - if this is in the wrong forum or inappropriate, please feel free to move or delete. Hopefully I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, but this could end up being a very good deal for someone. Dovebid seems to attract mostly US buyers who don't bother trying to have things shipped from overseas (or bid very low on those items).
See the following link for a BHS equipped with what appears to be 10, 40, and 100x S Plan objectives, a universal condenser, and the appropriate 10, 40, and 100x DIC prisms (well, the labels are there anyhow) - it also appears to have a darkfield stop. Good luck!
http://www.go-dove.com/assets/display.a ... 116&bhcp=1
BTW, if you click "View Images" and then right click on the image and select "View Image", you'll get a larger version of the pictures.
Olympus BHS with DIC in UK for sale
Moderators: rjlittlefield, ChrisR, Chris S., Pau
As a real beginner to all things microscope, all I know about DIC is it's really expensive and can produce really nice looking images. (Hence I'd really like a scope with it!! 
) Where are you seeing these labels which make you think it has DIC?
And, a difficult question I know - what is a scope like this actually worth? I'm finding it really difficult to price microscope stuff, most people don't seem to publish prices for new scopes from good brands.. As a mental exercise the other day I was thinking if money was no object, what compound scope would I splash out on. But I didn't get very far! What sort of prices do good compound scopes with DIC run to from the likes of Olympus, Nikon, Leica or Zeiss?
) Where are you seeing these labels which make you think it has DIC?And, a difficult question I know - what is a scope like this actually worth? I'm finding it really difficult to price microscope stuff, most people don't seem to publish prices for new scopes from good brands.. As a mental exercise the other day I was thinking if money was no object, what compound scope would I splash out on. But I didn't get very far! What sort of prices do good compound scopes with DIC run to from the likes of Olympus, Nikon, Leica or Zeiss?
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Tardigrade37
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:38 pm
Hi Laurie,
My apologies for taking so long to respond. This scope shows signs of DIC based on the following:
1 - it has the intermediate tube (1.25x) with a slider that has a knurled knob - this would be the upper wollaston prism.
2 - while not conclusive, but supportive, is the fact that it has S Plan objectives.
3 - It has the universal condenser, which was much more costly than the standard phase condenser, and unnecessary if all you were doing was phase contrast.
4 - On the universal condenser, I can make out the tags UNP 10 and UNP 100, which are the proper lower wollaston prisms for the 10x and 100x SPlan objectives. I'm supposing that the position that is blocked by the knob is UNP 40 for the 40x objective. It also appears that the far left entry may be UDA for darkfield.
As far as cost/worth of this, Charles may be the best to ask as he uses a BHS with DIC. I know a trinocular BHS stand can regularly fetch anywhere between $1000-2000. With DIC components, it would probably double if not more.
My apologies for taking so long to respond. This scope shows signs of DIC based on the following:
1 - it has the intermediate tube (1.25x) with a slider that has a knurled knob - this would be the upper wollaston prism.
2 - while not conclusive, but supportive, is the fact that it has S Plan objectives.
3 - It has the universal condenser, which was much more costly than the standard phase condenser, and unnecessary if all you were doing was phase contrast.
4 - On the universal condenser, I can make out the tags UNP 10 and UNP 100, which are the proper lower wollaston prisms for the 10x and 100x SPlan objectives. I'm supposing that the position that is blocked by the knob is UNP 40 for the 40x objective. It also appears that the far left entry may be UDA for darkfield.
As far as cost/worth of this, Charles may be the best to ask as he uses a BHS with DIC. I know a trinocular BHS stand can regularly fetch anywhere between $1000-2000. With DIC components, it would probably double if not more.
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Charles Krebs
- Posts: 5865
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:02 pm
- Location: Issaquah, WA USA
- Contact:
Laurie,
This is going to be more of an answer than you wanted. But it might be helpful to put some of this info on the forum, and this seems like an appropriate time.
Well there's new (or used current models) and then there's the "older" finite tube length models.
For liability reasons, I should probably get a physicians note concerning any heart conditions before I tell you what the new stuff costs
Just to give you an idea I came across some prices for some of the current Olympus equipment. The "new" universal condenser is $2463 (no inserts). Nomarski (DIC) insets are about $1200 apiece. Figure about $1500-2500 per objective. So with 3 objectives, a condenser, and three prisms you're up to $12K and you don't even have the microscope and DIC analyzer yet!
I've never actually priced a new one, but my understanding is that is it easy to run up to $17-25K (and considerably more) depending on the components selected. So older, used is what most of us mere mortals look at.
As to the one Tardigrade37 mentions above, I believe his assessment to be correct. (Although obviously we can't see what prisms may or may not actually be inside the condenser). The two objectives are the 10X and 40X S Plan Achromats.
To get a sense of some of some used pieces here are a few interesting eBay items to peruse:
190285646145 Zeiss Standard, DIC
290295057009 Nikon DIC components
290295048094 Olympus Vanox
Basically you need DIC components below the stage, and then additional DIC components somewhere above the objective(s). There are a few ways this can be accomplished. For example, I believe Zeiss had three different DIC "systems" for their 160mm, finite tube length systems.
The only DIC setup I am really familiar with is the one I use. It is one made for the Olympus BH stands. So I'll give a little run-down on the Olympus BH hardware. It won't apply to all manufacturers, but it might provide some insight about the considerations when looking at DIC microscopes.
For Olympus BH series DIC (NIC) you need the proper condenser with DIC prisms and the upper intermediate piece.
Olympus made two condensers for this.
The first was the BH2-NCF (Part# 6-LP135). I think the original list price for this condenser was $3634. This is a 1.4 aplanatic/achromatic condenser with a turret containing 2 phase annuli (10X and 40X), and four NIC (DIC) prisms for 10X, 20X, 40X and 100X. These prisms were meant to be used with the Olympus S Plan Achromats. It also has a regular "brightfield" position in the turret. My understanding is that these annuli and prisms were fixed in position.
The second ( the one I have) was the BH2-UCD ("universal" condenser). This is a 0.9 aplanatic/achromatic condenser (with flip out top element). This condenser has a turret with 5 positions, but it did not come with installed fixed prisms. One position provides normal "brightfield". The other four are "user interchangeable". There are phase contrast annuli available, and DIC prisms for both S Plan Achromats and D Plan Apo's. (The only prism made specifically for an S Plan Apo was for the 60/1.40)
The "upper piece" was the same in both cases. This is the BH2-NA, Nomarski DIC intermediate attachment with prism slider. (I think the original price for this was $1997.)
Some really liked the first condenser. It has the 1.4 aperture. This appealed to people who wanted to "oil" their condenser for the highest possible NA brightfield work. It's also nice to have all those turret positions, so lighting could be quickly changed from brightfield, to phase, to DIC. The only real "downside" (in my opinion) was that the prisms were not "user interchangeable" so you were limited to the prisms made for the the S Plan Achromats. Good objectives, but not Plan Apo's. By the way... I'm not positive about this but even though it is a 1.4 NA condenser, I don't believe there was a larger NA (numerical aperture) benefit when using DIC, as the condenser aperture was constrained by the diameter of the DIC prism. (I have heard of people removing the Plan Achromat prisms and installing the D Plan Apo ones, but I have no idea if this can work well or not).
The BH2-UCD condenser has a 0.9 aperture. Some saw this as a step backwards, as they could not use their "oil" objectives at full NA in brightfield. But the "flip-out" top meant it was more usable for brightfield with low power objectives like the 4X and 2X. There are two fewer turret positions, but the inserts are user changeable, and you can select from phase annuli, and DIC prisms for S Plan Achromats and D Plan Apo's. Since DIC relies on polarized light, the objectives should be "strain free". Manufacturers will tell you which objectives to use, or mark the appropriate objectives with "DIC" or NIC" markings. (Also, the DIC condenser prisms themselves are made to work properly with certain objectives, as designated by the manufacturer). I am using the prisms that were designated by Olympus for their D Plan Apo objectives. But I am using those with S Plan Apo's. (Plan Apo's are complex with many elements. Historically is was harder to make these "strain-free"). I did a variety of comparisons with different prisms and objectives to see if this would be a problem or not. Here's what I found. I was not crazy about any 10X combination. The DIC effect was very strong, but it was very hard to get an even colored, or even reasonably even illuminated background. With 20X and 40X objectives the S Plan Apos worked well with the prisms made for the D Plan Apos, and I prefered the look of the images over other combinations. The 60/1.40 S Plan Apo gives excellent DIC with the prism made for it. With the 100X objective my DIC is more subdued, and is of low contrast and rather monochrome. But I have never been able to locate the correct 100X prism made for the BH2-UCD. (The one I have is actually for more recent "infinity" optics). So I don't know if the "problem" is with the prism, the objective, or a little of both.
This illustrates an important point when looking for used DIC equipment. Without all the proper pieces it won't work. Locating the proper DIC inserts for the BH2-UCD can seem even harder than locating the condenser! So I strongly recommend only considering a used purchase (especially the condenser) if a complete system is available. (At least complete enough to keep you working happily while you try to track down additional pieces). If you try to do it too piecemeal, it may literally take years to find what you need to get up and running.
(Others in this group have more experience with microscope hardware than I do, so hopefully they can offer additional perspective to the "used DIC" discussion)
Charlie
This is going to be more of an answer than you wanted. But it might be helpful to put some of this info on the forum, and this seems like an appropriate time.
What sort of prices do good compound scopes with DIC run to from the likes of Olympus, Nikon, Leica or Zeiss?
Well there's new (or used current models) and then there's the "older" finite tube length models.
For liability reasons, I should probably get a physicians note concerning any heart conditions before I tell you what the new stuff costs
Just to give you an idea I came across some prices for some of the current Olympus equipment. The "new" universal condenser is $2463 (no inserts). Nomarski (DIC) insets are about $1200 apiece. Figure about $1500-2500 per objective. So with 3 objectives, a condenser, and three prisms you're up to $12K and you don't even have the microscope and DIC analyzer yet!
I've never actually priced a new one, but my understanding is that is it easy to run up to $17-25K (and considerably more) depending on the components selected. So older, used is what most of us mere mortals look at.
As to the one Tardigrade37 mentions above, I believe his assessment to be correct. (Although obviously we can't see what prisms may or may not actually be inside the condenser). The two objectives are the 10X and 40X S Plan Achromats.
To get a sense of some of some used pieces here are a few interesting eBay items to peruse:
190285646145 Zeiss Standard, DIC
290295057009 Nikon DIC components
290295048094 Olympus Vanox
Basically you need DIC components below the stage, and then additional DIC components somewhere above the objective(s). There are a few ways this can be accomplished. For example, I believe Zeiss had three different DIC "systems" for their 160mm, finite tube length systems.
The only DIC setup I am really familiar with is the one I use. It is one made for the Olympus BH stands. So I'll give a little run-down on the Olympus BH hardware. It won't apply to all manufacturers, but it might provide some insight about the considerations when looking at DIC microscopes.
For Olympus BH series DIC (NIC) you need the proper condenser with DIC prisms and the upper intermediate piece.
Olympus made two condensers for this.
The first was the BH2-NCF (Part# 6-LP135). I think the original list price for this condenser was $3634. This is a 1.4 aplanatic/achromatic condenser with a turret containing 2 phase annuli (10X and 40X), and four NIC (DIC) prisms for 10X, 20X, 40X and 100X. These prisms were meant to be used with the Olympus S Plan Achromats. It also has a regular "brightfield" position in the turret. My understanding is that these annuli and prisms were fixed in position.
The second ( the one I have) was the BH2-UCD ("universal" condenser). This is a 0.9 aplanatic/achromatic condenser (with flip out top element). This condenser has a turret with 5 positions, but it did not come with installed fixed prisms. One position provides normal "brightfield". The other four are "user interchangeable". There are phase contrast annuli available, and DIC prisms for both S Plan Achromats and D Plan Apo's. (The only prism made specifically for an S Plan Apo was for the 60/1.40)
The "upper piece" was the same in both cases. This is the BH2-NA, Nomarski DIC intermediate attachment with prism slider. (I think the original price for this was $1997.)
Some really liked the first condenser. It has the 1.4 aperture. This appealed to people who wanted to "oil" their condenser for the highest possible NA brightfield work. It's also nice to have all those turret positions, so lighting could be quickly changed from brightfield, to phase, to DIC. The only real "downside" (in my opinion) was that the prisms were not "user interchangeable" so you were limited to the prisms made for the the S Plan Achromats. Good objectives, but not Plan Apo's. By the way... I'm not positive about this but even though it is a 1.4 NA condenser, I don't believe there was a larger NA (numerical aperture) benefit when using DIC, as the condenser aperture was constrained by the diameter of the DIC prism. (I have heard of people removing the Plan Achromat prisms and installing the D Plan Apo ones, but I have no idea if this can work well or not).
The BH2-UCD condenser has a 0.9 aperture. Some saw this as a step backwards, as they could not use their "oil" objectives at full NA in brightfield. But the "flip-out" top meant it was more usable for brightfield with low power objectives like the 4X and 2X. There are two fewer turret positions, but the inserts are user changeable, and you can select from phase annuli, and DIC prisms for S Plan Achromats and D Plan Apo's. Since DIC relies on polarized light, the objectives should be "strain free". Manufacturers will tell you which objectives to use, or mark the appropriate objectives with "DIC" or NIC" markings. (Also, the DIC condenser prisms themselves are made to work properly with certain objectives, as designated by the manufacturer). I am using the prisms that were designated by Olympus for their D Plan Apo objectives. But I am using those with S Plan Apo's. (Plan Apo's are complex with many elements. Historically is was harder to make these "strain-free"). I did a variety of comparisons with different prisms and objectives to see if this would be a problem or not. Here's what I found. I was not crazy about any 10X combination. The DIC effect was very strong, but it was very hard to get an even colored, or even reasonably even illuminated background. With 20X and 40X objectives the S Plan Apos worked well with the prisms made for the D Plan Apos, and I prefered the look of the images over other combinations. The 60/1.40 S Plan Apo gives excellent DIC with the prism made for it. With the 100X objective my DIC is more subdued, and is of low contrast and rather monochrome. But I have never been able to locate the correct 100X prism made for the BH2-UCD. (The one I have is actually for more recent "infinity" optics). So I don't know if the "problem" is with the prism, the objective, or a little of both.
This illustrates an important point when looking for used DIC equipment. Without all the proper pieces it won't work. Locating the proper DIC inserts for the BH2-UCD can seem even harder than locating the condenser! So I strongly recommend only considering a used purchase (especially the condenser) if a complete system is available. (At least complete enough to keep you working happily while you try to track down additional pieces). If you try to do it too piecemeal, it may literally take years to find what you need to get up and running.
(Others in this group have more experience with microscope hardware than I do, so hopefully they can offer additional perspective to the "used DIC" discussion)
Charlie
Wow, many thanks for the oodles of information! Believe it or not most of that made sense, so either I'm learning fast about this stuff or that was explained extremely eloquently!
Crikey, I was expecting big prices but whoa the prices of new stuff! That seems excessive for a metal box, some dovetails, some lenses and prisms! I guess economies of scale come into this though, they must sell a lot less of these scopes than a typical DSLR or piece of consumer electronics!
This scope does unfortunately have a reserve and by the sounds of it that reserve _should_ be out of my price range, but I'm going to have a go anyway! It's located just down the road from me so it would be a shame not to try...
Crikey, I was expecting big prices but whoa the prices of new stuff! That seems excessive for a metal box, some dovetails, some lenses and prisms! I guess economies of scale come into this though, they must sell a lot less of these scopes than a typical DSLR or piece of consumer electronics!
This scope does unfortunately have a reserve and by the sounds of it that reserve _should_ be out of my price range, but I'm going to have a go anyway! It's located just down the road from me so it would be a shame not to try...
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Tardigrade37
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:38 pm
the reserve must be crazy on it, I've just stuck a large bid against it and it's saying reserve is still not met (n)
A lot of the prices on the other items they have are very optimistic for the moment, I buy lots of stuff from auctions such as this and the start prices they have will see lots of things go unsold
Last time I went to a pick up some winnings a few weeks ago they were loading all unsold lots into a number of skips with a fork lift, it was heart breaking the stuff they were putting in there unfortunately you couldn't help yourself. It'd been cheaper to put the starting bids at a fiver and save the skip rental!
A lot of the prices on the other items they have are very optimistic for the moment, I buy lots of stuff from auctions such as this and the start prices they have will see lots of things go unsold
Last time I went to a pick up some winnings a few weeks ago they were loading all unsold lots into a number of skips with a fork lift, it was heart breaking the stuff they were putting in there unfortunately you couldn't help yourself. It'd been cheaper to put the starting bids at a fiver and save the skip rental!
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Charles Krebs
- Posts: 5865
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:02 pm
- Location: Issaquah, WA USA
- Contact:
Out of curiosity I took another look. It appears that now the minimum has been met at £ 625.00 [US$ 891.21]. I know that's a lot of money, and at this price some may say it's not a "steal", but it is still a very, very good deal. If this were over here on eBay I would expect the price to go much higher (especially in the last 10 seconds )
)Hi Charles, inddeed it's still a very good price, luckily dovebid doesn't work at all like ebay in that sniping isn't possible, a bid in the last second for example will automatically add 5 minutes on to the close time to allow people to place subsequent bids, and so on each time someone bids again. A much fairer way of selling and much more like a real auction.
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Planapo
- Posts: 1581
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:33 am
- Location: Germany, in the United States of Europe
Laurie, good luck!
I would be interested, if it was "just down the road" from my place. But it isn´t, and I would bid on it only if I had reassurance from the seller that it is in good working condition, or if I had personally checked/ had have it checked before.
I've made the experience with quite some microscopes in various labs, that you can't tell from the looks only in what condition the equipment is. In labs devices can often be under severe use, and used from various persons. Some of these users don't know or don't bother how to operate them cautiously and correctly. This all can cause rapid wear. It should be a different story with most privately owned equipment where the owner cares.
So if it's just down the road from your place, I would recommend to go there and test it. Otherwise you might be dissappointed after you've bought it for a decent sum.
(I am not familiar with this auction site, I couldn't find a description that states details about the condition of this scope. Or is there one that I've missed?)
--Betty
I would be interested, if it was "just down the road" from my place. But it isn´t, and I would bid on it only if I had reassurance from the seller that it is in good working condition, or if I had personally checked/ had have it checked before.
I've made the experience with quite some microscopes in various labs, that you can't tell from the looks only in what condition the equipment is. In labs devices can often be under severe use, and used from various persons. Some of these users don't know or don't bother how to operate them cautiously and correctly. This all can cause rapid wear. It should be a different story with most privately owned equipment where the owner cares.
So if it's just down the road from your place, I would recommend to go there and test it. Otherwise you might be dissappointed after you've bought it for a decent sum.
(I am not familiar with this auction site, I couldn't find a description that states details about the condition of this scope. Or is there one that I've missed?)
--Betty
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Charles Krebs
- Posts: 5865
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:02 pm
- Location: Issaquah, WA USA
- Contact:
I've been trying to contact the seller to arrange an inspection (although I am a bit concerned - if it's not falling apart then I'm not totally sure I'd know what to do to detect any problems!) - but the "ask a question" form doesn't seem to be working for me, at least it submits to a blank page, and I haven't got any answers so far... (I've tried it in IE and Firefox with the same result)
I will try giving Dove-bid a call tomorrow and get them to give me contact details for the seller so I can at least talk to them about the condition.
If I can get a viewing arranged, any tips on what to look for in terms of wear?
I will try giving Dove-bid a call tomorrow and get them to give me contact details for the seller so I can at least talk to them about the condition.
If I can get a viewing arranged, any tips on what to look for in terms of wear?
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Charles Krebs
- Posts: 5865
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:02 pm
- Location: Issaquah, WA USA
- Contact:
Yes, a quick inspection is tough. From the pictures it looks pretty good. In person you can get a much better sense of how it's been treated.
I would want to know what "inserts" or "prisms" are inside the condenser. If you see it in person... I would check the glass surfaces for damage. Especially the top surface of the condenser, and the surface of the analyzer slider in the upper piece.
Actually, if you are serious about it, and do have the opportunity to look at it, send me a PM and I'll give some detail what I would check out based on my experience with this model.
I would want to know what "inserts" or "prisms" are inside the condenser. If you see it in person... I would check the glass surfaces for damage. Especially the top surface of the condenser, and the surface of the analyzer slider in the upper piece.
Actually, if you are serious about it, and do have the opportunity to look at it, send me a PM and I'll give some detail what I would check out based on my experience with this model.
