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Papilio ulysses
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mawyatt



Joined: 22 Aug 2013
Posts: 2452
Location: Clearwater

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guppy wrote:
The pressure wave from the lightning can be measured with a microphone and recorded on a channel with Audacity.
At the same time, the flash is measured with SIEMENS Silicium-PIN-Photodiode with short circuit time SFH 203
http://www.focus-stacking.ch/html/flash_burning_time.html
and records this on the second channel.
Then you can see the timing in Audacity.

Kurt


Kurt,

Very nice image and discussion.

There is a comment in the reference that is :

Studio flashes possess a high guidenumber (e.g. 55), however, the burning time usually is about the same over all power levels (full to 1/32 power), typically the burning time is approximately 1/200s to 1/1'000 s, due to long flash bulbs. The power reduction is regulated by the light intensity and therefore studio flashes are not suitable for macro photography.

However, I disagree with this statement as there are many modern Studio Strobes that are actually faster than a Speedlight at a given power level, and without the hassle of batteries, overheating and very slow refresh times. These modern Studio Strobes use the same IGBT technology as Speedlights but at a much higher power level, 10X or more.

Best,
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Guppy



Joined: 20 Dec 2010
Posts: 103
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Quick and dirty
The upper curve shows the pressure wave, the lower curve the flash light.

First at full power of the YONGNUO YN 560 III.
The blast is during the flash.


Next curves at 1/16 power


Next curves at 1/32 power, which I rarely use


Next curves at 1/64 power, which I sometimes use


Next curves at 1/128 power, which I mostly use.


This shows why I have no problems with the pressure waves.

Kurt
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Pau
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Joined: 20 Jan 2010
Posts: 5049
Location: Valencia, Spain

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guppy wrote:

This shows why I have no problems with the pressure waves.


Brilliant!
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Guppy



Joined: 20 Dec 2010
Posts: 103
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mike

My text is over 10 years old and it still applies to most pseudo studio flash units used by amateurs. Smile

Kurt
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Last edited by Guppy on Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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mawyatt



Joined: 22 Aug 2013
Posts: 2452
Location: Clearwater

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kurt,

Nice graphs that illustrate the avoidance of the sound pressure wave!!

Some of the Studio Strobes that utilize the IGBT and have quick outputs are:

Adorama XPLOR 600, 400 & 600 Pro, and Godox equivalents

ORLIT RoveLight 601 & 610

Flashpoint Rapid 400 & 600 and Godox equivalents

Paul Buff LINK & Einstein

Just to name a few, there are many more.

Most don't cost much more that a Nikon or Canon speedlight, and support speedlight features such a TTL and HSS, have full wireless control and triggering, some have battery capability (large Lithium Ion types) and a few have optional remote heads that just hold the flash tube.

Many have been available for some time (I've had a couple for over 5 years), and many more are becoming available since the electronics cost of the IGBT technology is now very low. Even thought about creating a kit to allow modification of older strobes to use IGBT for faster optical bursts, have the design finished but haven't ordered the parts yet. May do this when I get some time.

Anyway, might be worthwhile to take a look at the IGBT Strobes, the ones with remote heads seem very attractive for macro use since you can get the flash tube head up very close to the subject without the weight and bulk of the rest of the strobe.

Best,
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Guppy



Joined: 20 Dec 2010
Posts: 103
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mike

I need light from 4 directions.
The brightness of the YONGNUO YN 560 III at 1/128 is usually sufficient.



Adorama XPLOR 600, $ 549.00 (4 x $ 549.00 = $ 2196.00)
Flash Duration - 1/220s to 1/10000s
T0,1 or T0.5 ?

Adorama XPLOR 400 Pro, $ 649.00 (4 x $ 649.00 = $ 2596.00)
IGBT inspired Flash Duration with 1/220s to 1/12820s (T0.1)

Adorama XPLOR 600 Pro $ 899.00 (4 x $ 899.00 = $ 3596.00)
? Sun-stopping HSS with up to 1/8000s high-speed sync flash

ORLIT RoveLight 601, $ 319.00 (4 x $ 319.00 = $ 1276.00)
Short Flash Duration (Freeze Mode) - 1/600s - 1/19000s
T0,1 or T0.5 ?

ORLIT RoveLight 610, $ 429.00 (4 x $ 429.00 = $ 1716.00)
Short Flash Duration IGBT (Freeze Mode) 1/800s 1/19000s
T0,1 or T0.5 ?

Flashpoint Rapid 400, $ 399.00 (4 x $ 399.00 = 1596.00)
The controllable flash duration is so rapid, it is possible to arrest action at 1/28984s
T0,1 or T0.5 ?

Flashpoint Rapid 600, $ 599.00 (4 x $ 599.00 = $ 2396)
Flash Duration (T0.1) – 1/190s – 1/19606s (Speed Mode) / 1/190s-1/3766s (Stable Color Mode)

I think 4 x YONGNUO YN 560 III, $ 122.00 (4 x $ 122.00 = $ 488.00)
is a good solution Smile

Kurt
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mawyatt



Joined: 22 Aug 2013
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Location: Clearwater

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a few of the YN560, 568 and 622 long ago. After melting a couple, burning my hand on the batteries, messing up quite a few stacks because of misfires, exposure variations, slow recycle times, RF trigger problems, and not being able to complete large S&S sessions (batteries overheated/drained), I gave up and moved on to Studio Strobes.

Think most of the times for the strobes are for 0.1T, that seems to be the time used for the better strobes. At 0.5T you can have a significant exposure outside the 0.5 limits as some of your graphs show, both pre and post exposure which as you've shown doubles the time at 1/128 to ~60us.

Also the Studio Strobes are more powerful than the YN560 which is around 60WS I recall. So a 400WS Studio Strobe (Flashpoint Rapid 400) at 1/128 power would have about the same output as a YN560 at 1/16, and the Strobe is faster too at this power level with a 0.1T of ~35us and with a recycle time of 0.05 seconds Shocked

The strobes also have modeling lights, some have or can be changed to LED types, which are very useful for setting up a stacking session.

Anyway, if you are happy with YN560's that's great, just hope you don't run into all the problems I did years ago. I still have speed lights and use them (moved away from Yongnuo because of the unreliable RF trigger system), just generally not for studio stacking sessions.

Best,
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JohnDownie



Joined: 18 Oct 2011
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The usual NYC suspects are clearing out the Profoto B2 location kit - 2 250 WS heads, power pack, 2 batteries, charger and bag, for >50% off @ $995.

The flashes have a power range of 1 - 250 WS, Flash Duration of 1/1,000 - 1/15,000 Sec.
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Guppy



Joined: 20 Dec 2010
Posts: 103
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot Mike

I use several YONGNUO YN 560 III for many years and was lucky, no problems!
But use them only with throttled power,1/128 to maximum1/32.
Over 1000 flashes in a row are quite possible.

Kurt
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marcojongsma



Joined: 22 Feb 2019
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: Papilio ulysses Reply with quote

Guppy wrote:
Hi

What should you do if it snows all day outside?
Stack what it takes!
Wing scales with the NIKON M Plan, 60/0.7 ELWD, 210/0.



http://files.homepagemodules.de/b649264/f7t3438p26625n2_znqSYKuw.jpg

Kamera: Nikon D810
Objektiv: NIKON M Plan, 60/0.7 ELWD, 210/0
Belichtungszeit: Blitz
ISO: 250
Beleuchtung: 4 Blitzgeräte
Aufnahmedateiformat (RAW/JPG): RAW
Beschnittsbetrag in % (Breite u. Höhe): 3.5, 8
Stativ: Reprostand
Aufnahmedatum: 22.01.2020
Herkunft: Nachlass
Artenname: Papilio ulysses
Multishot-Technik: Focus Stacking
Stacking Software / - Methode: Zerene Stacker / PMax
Abbildungsmassstab: 60:1
Objektseitige Bildbreite (mm): 0.58
Stacktiefe (mm): 0.064
Anzahl Stackschritte: 129 (pro Schritt 2 Bilder = Total 258)
Stackschrittgrösse (mm): 0.000496

Kurt


Hello Guppy

amazing photo work what you made and i learn alot from your posts.
i have a question do you have a histogram photo from a single shot ?
im intrested cause your images are so nice bright do you shoot expose to the right my experience with my 50x objective is that must under expose alot cause my highlight blowing out .
i hope you can help me
sorry for my bad english

regards

marco
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Guppy



Joined: 20 Dec 2010
Posts: 103
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Marco
24.03.2020
This histogram is wrong, see histogram on next page.
Sorry



I hope it helps you

Kurt
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Last edited by Guppy on Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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rjlittlefield
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Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 20652
Location: Richland, Washington State, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are interesting graphs.

My first thought was that the gaps in these histograms look like the image was restricted to 8 bits, then stretched by some curves/levels transform.

But then after a while I realized that these are probably the raw levels that appear in 12-bit .NEF, displayed on a log-log graph. It is a format that I do not recall having seen before.

Kurt, what program made this display?

Regarding exposure, I think the key point is that the green channel is about 1/2 stop less than maximum exposure without clipping.

--Rik
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Chris S.
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Joined: 05 Apr 2009
Posts: 3481
Location: Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Papilio ulysses Reply with quote

marcojongsma wrote:
. . .do you have a histogram photo from a single shot?

I'm interested cause your images are so nice bright do you shoot expose to the right? My experience with my 50x objective is that must under expose a lot cause my highlight blowing out.

Marco,

Like you, I leave extra space at the right side of the histogram when shooting with objectives that have very limited depth of field, such as 50x. The reason, it seems to me, is that when depth of field is tiny, most highlights captured in any single shot are not in focus. This blurs these highlights, averaging the pixels containing the highlight with darker nearby pixels, which means that the true value of the highlights will not be shown by the histogram.

Stacking counteracts this blur, causing the histogram to have a longer tail to the right. If there isn't room at the right side of the histogram during image capture, the highlights in the stacked image will burn out.

The amount of room needed on the right depends on the subject, and whether I'm shooting jpeg or raw.

--Chris S.
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Guppy



Joined: 20 Dec 2010
Posts: 103
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Rik

"what program made this display?"
RawDigger

This RAW file is in 14Bit RAW format, i.e. NEF from Nikon D810.
Please note that the Y-axis range is logarithmic,
so I can see individual highlights better.

Kurt
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rjlittlefield
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Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 20652
Location: Richland, Washington State, USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the added info.

Guppy wrote:
This RAW file is in 14Bit RAW format, i.e. NEF from Nikon D810.

The graphs show an X-axis with a largest value only a little bit more than 4000. I assume that axis is pixel values. But then 12-bit data is 0-4095, 14-bit data is 0-16383. That's why I guessed 12-bit raw.

Does RawDigger do some binning, like Photoshop always shows "0-255" even for 16-bit data?

Or is something else going on?

--Rik
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