Best tube choices to accompany Mitutoyo 5x and 10x

Danny Burk · Post by **Danny Burk** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:15 pm

I'm looking to make my first venture into objective lenses and could use a few pointers on the best tube lens to accompany them. First, a little about the setup and use intended:

I'll use a Sony A7RIV; for this project, I mainly want to shoot butterfly wing patterns from about 2x to 5x, but I can see going to 10x on occasion. At some point it's possible that I may want 20x, but that's a future consideration. I presently have a range of lenses going to 5x, but I'm not satisfied with image quality at the higher end of this scale (for which I have a Canon 65 1-5x and Laowa 2.5-5x) and want to step up to Mitutoyo. I'm looking for high quality for large prints up to about 48" long and don't mind spending a reasonable amount more if it results in superior images.

I'll use a Stackshot in vertical orientation, mounted on a very heavy copy stand on a concrete floor. I'm using continuous lighting and electronic shutter, remote release, etc.

I've read a large number of threads here, and my initial enthusiasm for a Thorlabs ITL200 tube lens faded when I read more thoroughly and found that it doesn't work well with full frame. What's my best choice for a full-frame-appropriate tube lens? Should I consider something like a Canon 200/2.8 ii lens as the "tube"? This would work well since I could also use it for other purposes (adapted to the Sony), but I'd want to be sure that I'm primarily making the best choice for high quality results on the Mitutoyo.

I gather that I could use that Canon, or other tube lens, interchangeably between the Mitutoyo 5x and 10x? I should point out that I have an intense dislike of 3:2 aspect ratio and always crop to 4:3 or squarer, so if the extreme corners of full frame are a bit below par, it wouldn't matter for my use.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts!

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:09 pm

Robert OToole's tests at https://www.closeuphotography.com/tube- ... s-compared showed that, in his APS-C setup, top places at 200 mm were Thorlabs ITL200, Century Precision Optics +4 Achromatic Diopter Lens, and Raynox DCR-150.

My own tests at https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... hp?t=23898 came out that DCR-150 covered much better than ITL200 on full frame. However, I was using the ITL200 in its orientation as recommended by Thorlabs.

Macro_Cosmos at https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... hp?t=38624 reports good results with ITL200 on full frame, using the ITL200 in reversed orientation. I have not tried that.

In trying to find a tube lens that would work well for medium format, user nathanm reports at https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... hp?t=32346 that he got better results from Raynox DCR-5320PRO than he did from the Raynox DCR-150. (The DCR-5320PRO is a set of two lenses, +2 and +3 diopters. nathanm used both together, +5 diopter, in a configuration he called DCR5320AB.) We don't have a lot of other test reports about the 5320, but some useful information in https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... hp?t=35716 (see both pages).

Personally I use a Raynox DCR-150, and that seems to be a popular choice. But my best guess is that the Raynox DCR-5320PRO would do a little better.

I have no experience with Canon 200/2.8 as tube lens. But user abpho at https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... 477#122477 reported that Canon 200mm f/2.8L II worked well on his full frame.

Yes, whatever tube lens you get, you can use it interchangeably between the Mitutoyo 5X and 10X.

--Rik

Lou Jost · Post by **Lou Jost** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:28 pm

I've found that what works well on APS (see Robert's tests) do not necessarily work well on FF.

For FF I like the Nikkor-Q 135mm f/3.5 and 2.8, and the medium format 200mm Mamiya apo lens. Both these provide uniform quality across the full frame. But if you are most concerned about center sharpness, the choices could be different.

Danny Burk · Post by **Danny Burk** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:03 pm

Thanks for the info, gentlemen. Condensing things, it's looking like these could be the best choices:

1) Raynox DCR-5320PRO (although I don't know how it may compare to the ITL200 reversed);

2) Mamiya 200/2.8 APO (I like the idea of this very much, since I can get triple use via the Mitutoyo and with my A7RIV and Fuji GFX for "normal" use)

Lou, yes, I'd like to get excellent across the frame sharpness and not just best in the center.

Now, would anyone venture a guess whether the Raynox or the Mamiya would be more likely to be the superior choice for full frame in conjunction with the Mitutoyo? (I'd also be interested in using the latter on my GFX if possible; for that, would the Mamiya also be suitable?) I gather that Mitutoyo's 7.5x and 20x would be best on the GFX due to their larger image circle.

Thanks again!

Lou Jost · Post by **Lou Jost** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:14 pm

The Mamiya is a very nice lens...Raynox is much more economical and also gives good results.

The Mamiya is a 6x4.5mm format lens. However, you shouldn't expect to fill that whole image circle with a Mitutoyo.

I think copy variation is great in Mamiya medium format lenses; get one with return privileges.

I highly recommend you also buy a cheap Nikkor-Q 135mm f/3.5 (they are almost free on eBay) which gives you the option of pushing down the magnification of your objectives while retaining their higher NA.

Adalbert · Post by **Adalbert** » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:25 am

Hello Lou,

I highly recommend you also buy a cheap Nikkor-Q 135mm f/3.5 (they are almost free on eBay) which gives you the option of pushing down

what about the DCR-250 for this reason?

while retaining their higher NA.

are you sure that pushing-down doesn’t change the resolution of the setup?

BR, ADi

Lou Jost · Post by **Lou Jost** » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:53 am

Yes, the shorter Raynox also works for that.

When pushing down, the resolution of the image increases (as long as the objective's good image circle allows it). Resolution on the subject stays the same. Many people on this forum prefer pushing down a higher-m objective, when possible, rather than using the nominate magnification of an objective with lower NA.

abpho · Post by **abpho** » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:41 pm

Hello Danny Burk. As Rik mentioned I use the Canon 200mm f/2.8L II USM lens as my tube lens, on both Full Frame and APS-C cameras. I typically shoot wide open. Unfortunately, I currently only have examples at f/4 handy. These are my final full frame edits.

Mitutoyo 5x. 200L at f/4. Canon 7D (APS-C).

Mitutoyo 5x. 200L at f/4. Canon 5D2 (Full frame).

My FF stack is not quite deep enough, but there is some resolution loss i near the top left corner. I recall using the 200L with a Mitutoyo 20x though, and having great results in the corners. I would have to dig up that test shot to confirm.

I also use the MPE at 1-4x with great results. The Mitty 5x kills it, and I highly recommend it.

Let me know if you have any questions.

zed · Post by **zed** » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:32 pm

Just my 2 cents - the Raynox DCR-150 works fantastically with a range of Mitutoyo optics. I use the 5x, 10x and 20x with the DCR-150 as a tube lens and have yet to find a better performer. I tested against the Thor TTL-200 and was unimpressed with this optic as a tube lens on a full frame camera (I use Nikon's D850). You can't go wrong with this optic - and $65USD is hard to beat.

Macro_Cosmos · Post by **Macro_Cosmos** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:33 am

rjlittlefield wrote: Macro_Cosmos at https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... hp?t=38624 reports good results with ITL200 on full frame, using the ITL200 in reversed orientation. I have not tried that.

I'll have to warn others about the ITL200 in retro, this is based on my own observations.
1. For 5x and 10x, ITL200 in retro does indeed deliver sharper images. CA levels are identical. However on FX, there will be rather heavy vignetting in the corners that's mechanical. It has to be cropped out
2. For 20x, the ITL200 in retro does not work at all. There's fuzziness, CA pops up, and sharpness drops. It's best to have the lens in its intended setup

As to why this happens, I simply have no explanation. I will have to conduct very controlled tests to find out whether putting the ITL200 retro is fallacious or not. My older setups were pretty crude.

(Gist is, having the ITL200 in correct orientation might just be better overall. The reason why reversing it seemingly gave better IQ would be purely imagination -- it doesn't, but I want it to be different. This stems from the ITL200 being made for crop sensors, thus not granting the best corners, and therefore the observations are just purely anecdotal. I was initially very disappointed with the ITL200, it was later discovered that my setup just wasn't good enough. Shelling out $1000 for SM2 parts "solved" this issue. It was still not the best per dollar compared to say the 200mm ai-s, so I convinced myself that reversing would give better images. It's the old "conclusion then find whatever fits", aka circular reasoning.)

Danny Burk · Post by **Danny Burk** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:56 pm

Thanks to everyone for the info. I'll mull over the choices and figure out my plan of action.

Deanimator · Post by **Deanimator** » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:56 am

abpho wrote:Hello Danny Burk. As Rik mentioned I use the Canon 200mm f/2.8L II USM lens as my tube lens, on both Full Frame and APS-C cameras. I typically shoot wide open. Unfortunately, I currently only have examples at f/4 handy. These are my final full frame edits.

Mitutoyo 5x. 200L at f/4. Canon 7D (APS-C).

Mitutoyo 5x. 200L at f/4. Canon 5D2 (Full frame).

Very nice.

Sabatini · Post by **Sabatini** » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:42 pm

JKT · Post by **JKT** » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:54 am

rjlittlefield wrote:... he got better results from Raynox DCR-5320PRO than he did from the Raynox DCR-150. (The DCR-5320PRO is a set of two lenses, +2 and +3 diopters. nathanm used both together, +5 diopter, in a configuration he called DCR5320AB.)

Thanks for the heads up on this! I wouldn't pay that much for the quality improvement over DCR-150, but the lone +3 is just what I was looking for. The ad for the DCR-5230PRO also mentioned that two sets can be used to make any of the following series: +2, +3, +4, +5, +6, +7, +8, +10. The quality with four stacked lenses is an interesting question ... which I'm not about to test.