Which camera bodies have fully electronic shutter?

[rolsen]

I'm sorry if this has already been covered, but really couldn't find any signs of that.

Macro- and micro-related, which camera bodies have this fully electronic shutter? Many have EFCS, but it is just Electronic First Curtain Shutter, I'm after the good stuff, the real thing.

[bs0604]

I have the fujifilm x pro2 camera. It has an option for electronic shutter mode only. the problem is that if using a flash it can't be set to electronic shutter mode.

[enricosavazzi]

Add to the list the Olympus E-M1 and E-M1 II (with different limitations) and the Sony A7RII. Fully electronic (no shutter sound at all) is available in all three. These are cameras that I own, so I have direct experience with them. This list is of course not complete.

The E-M1 sensor stabilization still emits a faint sound even when switched off and even when using electronic shutter, for unknown reasons. I cannot detect any unsharpness caused by this, but strictly speaking, sound=vibration.

Fast exposure times with electronic shutter and continuous illumination can result in banding, sometimes apparently even with a non-flickering illumination source (e.g. sunlight). The fastest exposure that does not result in banding differs among camera models. One workaround is using a relatively long exposure time with only flash and no continuous illumination during the actual exposure (i.e. subject is kept dark except for flash burst).

Shortest flash sync exposure with electronic flash also varies among cameras. Some cameras allow no flash sync with electronic shutter. It is possible to "cheat" by using external flash sync electronics and a relatively long exposure with these cameras, but TTL flash is not available in this case.

These observations suggest that there is more about the behavior of electronic shutters than the simple availability/unavailability of this feature.

[JohnyM]

Sony (cameras im using):
-APS-C : A6300, A6500
-FF: A7 generation III and A7RII (afaik it's only gen II camera with electronic shutter)

[mawyatt]

The Nikon D850 I use has a fully electronic curtain mode, called Silent Mode. This has no mechanical curtain movement, thus vibration free. As mentioned by ES you need a workaround for using flash/strobes, this is because the hotshot is blocked during this mode.

I believe all cameras block the hot shoe during a totally electronic curtain/shutter "Silent Mode" since the electronic curtains are not totally opaque and a bright light burst can corrupt, possibly even damage, the sensor during readout.

I have a Nikon Z7 which has this mode as well, but haven't used it yet so can't comment from experience.

Best,

[rjlittlefield]

I believe all cameras block the hot shoe during a totally electronic curtain/shutter "Silent Mode" since the electronic curtains are not totally opaque and a bright light burst can corrupt, possibly even damage, the sensor during readout.

I share the belief that they do block the hot shoe.

But I am highly skeptical about all the suggested reasons that I've heard, including these two. For these, I notice that a flash triggered by the camera's own hot shoe would occur during shutter open time, and other bright flashes (say in a group shooting situation) would not be under control of the camera's own hotshoe anyway. So, turning off the hotshoe as a protective measure for these reasons doesn't seem to work. Have I missed something?

--Rik

[hero]

Agree with Rik here. Note that when you're using a physical shutter to expose the image, there's a sync speed, usually like 1/200 s, above which one must use a high-speed sync mode for the strobe or else the flash will not illuminate the entire sensor due to the fact that there is no moment in time when the entire sensor is exposed. The sync speed is a physical limitation imposed by how fast the camera can move the curtains. Nikon made one body some time ago that had an amazing 1/500 s sync speed, if I recall correctly.

So, given this, I don't buy the reasoning that an electronic curtain requires disabling the hot shoe to protect the sensor from a strobe. In fact, in Live View modes, the sensor is continually being read out; under normal use a strobe would not "overload" a sensor.

[mawyatt]

I believe all cameras block the hot shoe during a totally electronic curtain/shutter "Silent Mode" since the electronic curtains are not totally opaque and a bright light burst can corrupt, possibly even damage, the sensor during readout.

I share the belief that they do block the hot shoe.

But I am highly skeptical about all the suggested reasons that I've heard, including these two. For these, I notice that a flash triggered by the camera's own hot shoe would occur during shutter open time, and other bright flashes (say in a group shooting situation) would not be under control of the camera's own hotshoe anyway. So, turning off the hotshoe as a protective measure for these reasons doesn't seem to work. Have I missed something?

--Rik

I have experienced flash bleed thru as a ghost image superimposed on the normal image when I was developing the external delay timing circuit, this occurred when the strobes were triggered after the electronic curtain had terminated the exposure. See reference below.

Since many strobes and maybe some speed lights have a built-in delay trigger mode it's possible that the flash/strobe could fire after the electronic rear curtain has closed, in addition to other possible ways. Many speed lights and strobes have very long light burst waveforms at higher powers that could extend beyond the normal flash synch period and have sufficient light energy after the electronic rear curtain closure to puncture the curtain and contaminate the image, especially if camera shorter exposure times are used.

This is all related to contaminating an image which isn't much of a big deal (just a lost image), however I believe the underlining reason for the hot shoe block is potentially actual sensor damage.

Photon induced latch-up of junction isolated CMOS silicon semiconductors is well known, and actually used to test for radiation "hardness". Latch-up occurs when the various PN junctions of a junction isolated CMOS silicon semiconductor become forward biased and create an "SCR" latching effect. Latch-up can also be induced with a extremely high photon exposure, improper power supply turn on or off sequence and even excessively overdriving an input or output. This can cause the CMOS chip to actually burn up, I know I've seen it happen with a hole melted in the package where the CMOS chip was!

Today most CMOS chips are designed to prevent latch-up by processing on an insulating substrate (SOI), strong input/output clamping, and supply rail clamping.

With this in mind the hot shoe block might be invoked to prevent an extremely high photon burst which could puncture the electronic curtain and expose the sensor chip when it's vulnerable during readout and induce latch-up which could require recycling the power to recover. Or worse, could damage the pixels involved or even worse destroy the entire sensor & camera.

I don't know if this is the reason for the hot shoe block, but silicon junction isolated CMOS semiconductors do behave this way (SCR latch-up), and our camera sensors must be photon exposed and may be highly vulnerable during the readout phase with various bias levels changing.

Maybe someone that's actually designed CMOS camera sensors can comment.

Here's a reference from a previous post:

Think I know why Nikon doesn't allow flash while in EFCS mode in Live View, or at least a reason to be cautious when using such. Since EFCS has no conventional shutters, the possibility of intense short duration light (like from a strobe or speed-light), occurring after the shutter period causing an image problem is high. Without a mechanical shutter in Live View the sensor is optically exposed after the shutter period during readout, no mechanical shutter nor mirror to block the optical path. The optical light burst could contaminate the pixels before or during the readout phase and corrupt the final image after the shutter period. I've seen evidence of this with partially exposed subjects appearing in the image after the electronic shutter has "supposedly closed" but the optical flash duration extends beyond the specified shutter period outside the exposure period window. It looks like a dark band as expected except some of the subject is shown thru the dark horizontal bands, looking like a bleed-thru effect.


https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... ight=ghost

Best,

[Troels]

Add to the list the Olympus E-M5 II.
Electronic First Shutter curtain is called Anti-Shock.
Used in Self-timer Mode with adjustable 0 sec. to 30 sec. delay after pressing the shutter.
Electronic First and Second Shutter curtain is called Silent Mode.

[iconoclastica]

Mike, wouldn't you run the same risk when in video-mode and someone else fires his flash? If so, it would happen all the time at press meetings.

[mawyatt]

Mike, wouldn't you run the same risk when in video-mode and someone else fires his flash? If so, it would happen all the time at press meetings.

Good question and I honestly don't know. The way the camera deals with video and live view may be different than when it's taking a high resolution high dynamic range still image. That's why I asked if someone that's designed a camera sensor could chime in. There must be some underlining reason for this Silent Mode behavior that's more than just getting a corrupted image.

It may very well take an enormous amount of flash power impinging on the sensor to cause damage, like pointing the flash directly into the lens.

Like you and others, I'm very curious as to "why". I'll post this question over on DP technology forum and see what they say.

Best,

[elimoss]

I am curious as well why they do not enable the hot shoe when shooting slower than the readout speed.

1/4 second is surely a safe sync speed for ES, so why can't that be enabled?

[Vector1968]

The Nikon D850 I use has a fully electronic curtain mode, called Silent Mode. This has no mechanical curtain movement, thus vibration free. As mentioned by ES you need a workaround for using flash/strobes, this is because the hotshot is blocked during this mode.

I believe all cameras block the hot shoe during a totally electronic curtain/shutter "Silent Mode" since the electronic curtains are not totally opaque and a bright light burst can corrupt, possibly even damage, the sensor during readout.

I have a Nikon Z7 which has this mode as well, but haven't used it yet so can't comment from experience.

Best,

Hi, I have a Nikon D810 camera, it can work well with a flash light in EFCS mode, but should be triggered twice, the first time mirror up, and the second time shot.

[mawyatt]

The Nikon D850 I use has a fully electronic curtain mode, called Silent Mode. This has no mechanical curtain movement, thus vibration free. As mentioned by ES you need a workaround for using flash/strobes, this is because the hotshot is blocked during this mode.

I believe all cameras block the hot shoe during a totally electronic curtain/shutter "Silent Mode" since the electronic curtains are not totally opaque and a bright light burst can corrupt, possibly even damage, the sensor during readout.

I have a Nikon Z7 which has this mode as well, but haven't used it yet so can't comment from experience.

Best,

Hi, I have a Nikon D810 camera, it can work well with a flash light in EFCS mode, but should be triggered twice, the first time mirror up, and the second time shot.

Victor,

Yes, but this EFCS mode (like the D500) does include a mechanical curtain to end the exposure, it's not the Silent Mode like the D850 where no mechanical curtain is involved.

Best,

[JohnyM]

It seems to be explained quite well here:
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/58166 ... -to-know/2

Makes sense why Olympus allows flash at very long exposure times.
I guess that with A9II we'll get flash and electronic shutter.