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Schneider Micro-Symmar 2.8/50 - Any experience?

 
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Davids



Joined: 31 Jan 2016
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:18 am    Post subject: Schneider Micro-Symmar 2.8/50 - Any experience? Reply with quote

Does anyone have experience with this lens? I'm not sure if it is still in production but looks pretty incredible: optimized for 3.5x, image circle of 62 mm, could possibly be reversed for increased magnification. They seem near impossible to find.

David
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 2482
Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: Schneider Micro-Symmar 2.8/50 - Any experience? Reply with quote

Davids wrote:
Does anyone have experience with this lens? I'm not sure if it is still in production but looks pretty incredible: optimized for 3.5x, image circle of 62 mm, could possibly be reversed for increased magnification. They seem near impossible to find.

David


Been looking for one myself for quite a while.

I can't seem to figure out from the data sheet what the working distance will be:

https://pyramidimaging.com/specs/Schneider/Micro-Symmar_2.8-50.pdf

Edited to add: I find it odd that the lens is specified as f2.8, but they give MTF curves at f2.3, f2.5, and f3.4. I have several lenses which open up beyond their rated apertures, but I still would have expected the MTF curve to be provided for f2.8.
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RobertOToole



Joined: 17 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is an interesting lens but.....Schneider distributors list it as discontinued and the listing is missing from the european site.

The strange thing about that lens is that its listed as optimized for 3-4x but the MTF magnification in the data sheet is only 0,30x. Not very reassuring.

I did get a price from SK years ago, I'll see if I can dig it up.

Robert
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 2482
Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RobertOToole wrote:
That is an interesting lens but.....Schneider distributors list it as discontinued and the listing is missing from the european site.

The strange thing about that lens is that its listed as optimized for 3-4x but the MTF magnification in the data sheet is only 0,30x. Not very reassuring.

I did get a price from SK years ago, I'll see if I can dig it up.

Robert


They show B' as being -3.5, and 1/B' = 0.29. Is B' the magnification, or is 1/B' the magnification? I swear these data sheets are meant to confuse anyone who is not looking at these things every day and knows where they are obfuscating.
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RobertOToole



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ray_parkhurst wrote:
RobertOToole wrote:
That is an interesting lens but.....Schneider distributors list it as discontinued and the listing is missing from the european site.

The strange thing about that lens is that its listed as optimized for 3-4x but the MTF magnification in the data sheet is only 0,30x. Not very reassuring.

I did get a price from SK years ago, I'll see if I can dig it up.

Robert


They show B' as being -3.5, and 1/B' = 0.29. Is B' the magnification, or is 1/B' the magnification? I swear these data sheets are meant to confuse anyone who is not looking at these things every day and knows where they are obfuscating.


So I located the Micro-symmar PDF, I need to stop going off memory. Turns out they do show the correct magnification. But they show the wrong apertures. They show f2.3 and f2.5 but the lens has a maximum f2.8 aperture.

I believe 1/B' = 0.29 is 1/.29 which is 3.4x! But where is f2.8?

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Davids



Joined: 31 Jan 2016
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I contacted SK and the lens is discontinued and only available as a "special order" with a minimum purchase order of 50 units. So....who's in? Wink
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RobertOToole



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davids wrote:
I contacted SK and the lens is discontinued and only available as a "special order" with a minimum purchase order of 50 units. So....who's in? Wink


Put me down for one Dave you can just put it on your CCD, I will cover you later. Whats 50 x 2800? Thats only $140K. Shocked

Asked Rayfact Japan for a quote last year and they replied "extremely expensive" since I was only ordering one unit they recommended a cheaper alternative for only $22,000. The rep said that was the very first time he had seen Japan reply with the extremely expensive comment. Very Happy
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Davids



Joined: 31 Jan 2016
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha! You've got it, Robert! What's the harm in a little credit card debt??

Also, at least they were direct with you. One can only imagine what "extremely expensive" means if the "cheaper" alternative was $22,000.

It's a shame that this lens is discontinued and hard to find - there really isn't much available with that image circle and magnification.
I contacted Qioptiq for a quote on their inspec.X L 3.5/105 optimized for 5x. It would cost $3,880. Slightly lower than a brand new Macro Varon.
My biggest issue with a lens like this would be the length of extension required to reach 5x. I believe there is another version optimized for 3.5x.
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davids wrote:
Ha! You've got it, Robert! What's the harm in a little credit card debt??

Also, at least they were direct with you. One can only imagine what "extremely expensive" means if the "cheaper" alternative was $22,000.

It's a shame that this lens is discontinued and hard to find - there really isn't much available with that image circle and magnification.
I contacted Qioptiq for a quote on their inspec.X L 3.5/105 optimized for 5x. It would cost $3,880. Slightly lower than a brand new Macro Varon.
My biggest issue with a lens like this would be the length of extension required to reach 5x. I believe there is another version optimized for 3.5x.


I have the 105/4IXL3p5 and in order to use it at 3.5x I need to add a whole lot of extra extension both sides of the bellows. If I was to set it up for active use I'd probably need to build a completely new and much larger setup.

It is exactly the issue above that makes me interested in the 50MS3p5, as I think I could use it with my existing system. However, I still can't seem to figure out what the working distance would be... Crying or Very sad
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RobertOToole



Joined: 17 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davids wrote:
Ha! You've got it, Robert! What's the harm in a little credit card debt??

Also, at least they were direct with you. One can only imagine what "extremely expensive" means if the "cheaper" alternative was $22,000.

It's a shame that this lens is discontinued and hard to find - there really isn't much available with that image circle and magnification.
I contacted Qioptiq for a quote on their inspec.X L 3.5/105 optimized for 5x. It would cost $3,880. Slightly lower than a brand new Macro Varon.
My biggest issue with a lens like this would be the length of extension required to reach 5x. I believe there is another version optimized for 3.5x.


The Inspec.X f3.5 or f4 do show up from time to time on Ebay. There was a big batch in China for $275-350 or so dollars that was online a year or two ago. I passed on them for the exact reason you mentioned, the extension needed.

After seeing results from the last few tests I ran I am not sure what to expect. Have a feeling there is a lens combo out there that would beat the inspec.x L due to the modest effective aperture.

Robert
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 2482
Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RobertOToole wrote:
Davids wrote:
Ha! You've got it, Robert! What's the harm in a little credit card debt??

Also, at least they were direct with you. One can only imagine what "extremely expensive" means if the "cheaper" alternative was $22,000.

It's a shame that this lens is discontinued and hard to find - there really isn't much available with that image circle and magnification.
I contacted Qioptiq for a quote on their inspec.X L 3.5/105 optimized for 5x. It would cost $3,880. Slightly lower than a brand new Macro Varon.
My biggest issue with a lens like this would be the length of extension required to reach 5x. I believe there is another version optimized for 3.5x.


The Inspec.X f3.5 or f4 do show up from time to time on Ebay. There was a big batch in China for $275-350 or so dollars that was online a year or two ago. I passed on them for the exact reason you mentioned, the extension needed.

After seeing results from the last few tests I ran I am not sure what to expect. Have a feeling there is a lens combo out there that would beat the inspec.x L due to the modest effective aperture.

Robert


I think the Lomo 3.7x probably wins against the 105/4IXL3p5, though I have not done a direct comparison. My interest in the 105 is due to its long working distance, which I need for my lighting. I can't figure out a way to light the subject so that it has proper surface contrast while still working for stitching without at least 75mm of height, so WD must be greater than this. There are other ways to light so that stitching works fine, but those methods result in insufficient contrast to reveal surface features.

The 50MS3p5 probably does not have sufficient WD to meet my needs, but until I can rule it out it remains interesting.
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Davids



Joined: 31 Jan 2016
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RobertOToole wrote:


After seeing results from the last few tests I ran I am not sure what to expect. Have a feeling there is a lens combo out there that would beat the inspec.x L due to the modest effective aperture.

Robert


Agreed -after seeing the incredible results you're getting with these stacked combinations, I doubt the inspec.x L will be that much better. For my system, however, it's the image circle that I'm after. While the GFX sensor isn't that much larger than a full frame, I'm unsure whether the stacked combinations can give good corner to corner sharpness. How about this, Robert - you buy a GFX or other medium format camera to test on, I'll put in that special order for the 50 SK micro-symmars... Wink
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