Flash lighting for macro

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clarnibass
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:33 pm

Flash lighting for macro

Post by clarnibass »

Hi

I recently started with more extreme macro, which means more photos per stack. I'm working on improving my setup. I use (and prefer) flash lights, but found a couple of issues. In short, the lights are a little weak, slow and use tons of batteries which are my pet peeve...

For example, I just had a stack where at f/4 (effective about f/11), ISO 200, I had to have my flashes on max. At about six seconds between photos it was missing, but it took a couple of dozens photos before it missed one. At eight seconds I wasn't sure anymore... I think it may have missed one after 40-50 photos (didn't check yet to be sure)... so I ended up raising to ISO 400 and changing the controller to eight seconds between photos. Optimally I'd rather use ISO 100, but 200 is good too.

So... question is, are the any good flash lights that are either stronger or faster (preferably both), and hopefully can be plugged instead of using batteries? I'm not sure why regular flashes can't (at least mine), since they just use four 1.5V batteries, should be possible to use something like a 6V PSU... no?

The other issue is that the setup is very small. I really rather not enlarge it unless I have to. It is basically inside a cardboard box (roughly the size of a small washing machine in). I don't know if there are flash lights like what I'm looking for that are also pretty small. I don't expect regular camera flash lights size, but maybe not huge in comparison.

Price is not an issue right now, I'll think about it once I see how much what I'm looking for costs (if it even exists). I expect it to cost much more than my flashes.

I guess I understand why many don't use flashes :)

Thanks

mawyatt
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Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:54 pm
Location: Clearwater, Florida

Post by mawyatt »

I often use flash/strobes for studio. Over the years I've done considerable evaluation of various flash and strobes and settled on the manual Adorama Studio 300, which is same as Godox SK300II. These are inexpensive (~$120), have wireless (R2) control built in, and hold up under the abuse for macro stacking. If you replace the modeling bulb with a dimmable LED (Corn type), then the heat buildup due to the bulb is almost eliminated. Search on here for more information.

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

clarnibass
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:33 pm

Post by clarnibass »

Thanks Mike. If you don't mind a few questions.

I found these here, though they cost about 50% more.

Re the modelling lights, I assume I can just turn them off?

If it's a realistic situation for you, can you explain a bit how you setup the lights for something like a small subject, let's say pretty close to the end of the lens (let's say 20mm to 100mm)?

Right now I use a white bristol paper, sort of wrapped around the subject (more or less in front, above and the sides), approx 80cm-100cm from it. The small flashes are just on each side of the camera (one sometimes on the camera itself), pointing more or less to the back.

With the larger flashes it seems that I would need to change the setup. Probably put them on stands? Maybe use the room for bouncing. Wondering if bouncing one of these from the walls and ceiling in the room would compare in power with a regular flash with the 80cm far "reflector".

Also what is the built in R2? How does that work?

Thanks again

mawyatt
Posts: 2497
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:54 pm
Location: Clearwater, Florida

Post by mawyatt »

clarnibass wrote:Thanks Mike. If you don't mind a few questions.

I found these here, though they cost about 50% more.

Re the modelling lights, I assume I can just turn them off?

If it's a realistic situation for you, can you explain a bit how you setup the lights for something like a small subject, let's say pretty close to the end of the lens (let's say 20mm to 100mm)?

Right now I use a white bristol paper, sort of wrapped around the subject (more or less in front, above and the sides), approx 80cm-100cm from it. The small flashes are just on each side of the camera (one sometimes on the camera itself), pointing more or less to the back.

With the larger flashes it seems that I would need to change the setup. Probably put them on stands? Maybe use the room for bouncing. Wondering if bouncing one of these from the walls and ceiling in the room would compare in power with a regular flash with the 80cm far "reflector".

Also what is the built in R2? How does that work?

Thanks again
Answers to your questions:

If you are not in the US, check out Godox (SK300II) on eBay, they should be comparably priced, I found a few at $102.46!!

Yes, the modeling lights can be turned off and are proportional controlled.

I usually image silicon chips which are small (1~10mm), and use multiple strobes positioned around the setup about 200~400mm from subject.

I often use a white styrofoam cup around lens that covers the subject, work well. White paper should also work well. Remember if you use diffusion that the distance from the strobes to the diffusion doesn't matter much, it's the diffusion to subject distance that matters most. I also use small light tents, these work well too.

I use them mostly on stands, since they are powerful you don't have to worry about getting really close. Cheap light stands work well but C Stands are really nice since they have a ~400mm adjustable arm off the vertical section with the strobe on the end. With the long arm, you have lots of flexibility in strobe location.

The R2 (Godox X2 equivalent I think) is the RF wireless control that is common to all the new strobe and flash models from Adorama or Godox. You can control lots of features remotely, as well as trigger the strobe from the camera hot shoe (the the Controller that works with your model camera). This works great for macro since you can control the exposure of each or all strobes by controlling the output(s) without touching the strobe.

Please use the search tool on here, you will finds lots of info on these items.

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

JKT
Posts: 420
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:29 am
Location: Finland
Contact:

Post by JKT »

I've had the same problem with batteries. I'm using three Yongnuo YN560 III flashes with the Yongnuo radio control (I forget which).

I ended up designing a fake battery set I plan on using with standard regulated 6V 3A DC power supply. Whether that works will be revealed once the parts arrive. From what I've read, it should work, but you never know. Some people modify the flashes with a DC socket, but I chose to leave the flashes as-is. It shouldn't be too difficult for the manufacturers to offer such fake battery set, but sadly none does.

The only part of any complexity is the frame for the fake battery. I designed it in 3D and ordered one set for testing. If it works and someone else is interested, I'll share the stl files. As it is, it likely won't print with extrusion, which is a pity. By design it fits Yongnuo YN560 series and likely other Yongnuo 4-battery flashes too. It might fit some others as well, but that would be purely by accident.


Your lighting setup seems to waste quite a lot of light. I just took stacks with LOMO 3.7x at 5:1 and my settings were ISO 200 and 1/64+.7 power. So there might be room for improvement in that direction as well. At least with Canons the ISO 200 is not a problem - it is the base ISO, or so I've heard.

iconoclastica
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:34 pm
Location: Wageningen, Gelderland

Post by iconoclastica »

I have been a happy user of the cheapest chinese set of studio flashes I could find ($250 for 3 heads with stands, soft boxes and other modifiers) for about ten years now. My pair of speedlights lays largely unused on the shelf. Similar sets can still be found on ebay and in stores.

Th modeling light is a halogene bulb but beware: it gets 220V. If one naively replace it with one that 'just fits' it will get launched, for in Europe that mount is used for 12V bulbs. I now buy 240V bulbs and cut the contacts straight.

The modeling light can be switched off, completely removed or replaced by LEDs. Personally I rarely use it, for the halogen lamps get too hot (even after changing the original 70W ones for 40W and the LED replacement I got isn't that bright.

The spread of light has to be controled by modifiers. A snoot comes in handy. An empty tin of beans with the bottom partly removed works well too.

They have fast recycling times, never get empty and have variable output (usually 1-1/16th or 1-1/64th). The flash duration is longer than that of speedlights. The latter output the full strength but cut it off once the request has been met. Studio flashes load their capacitors to the prerequested level and subsequently dump light until empty.
--- felix filicis ---

mawyatt
Posts: 2497
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:54 pm
Location: Clearwater, Florida

Post by mawyatt »

JKT wrote:I've had the same problem with batteries. I'm using three Yongnuo YN560 III flashes with the Yongnuo radio control (I forget which).

I ended up designing a fake battery set I plan on using with standard regulated 6V 3A DC power supply. Whether that works will be revealed once the parts arrive. From what I've read, it should work, but you never know. Some people modify the flashes with a DC socket, but I chose to leave the flashes as-is. It shouldn't be too difficult for the manufacturers to offer such fake battery set, but sadly none does.

The only part of any complexity is the frame for the fake battery. I designed it in 3D and ordered one set for testing. If it works and someone else is interested, I'll share the stl files. As it is, it likely won't print with extrusion, which is a pity. By design it fits Yongnuo YN560 series and likely other Yongnuo 4-battery flashes too. It might fit some others as well, but that would be purely by accident.


Your lighting setup seems to waste quite a lot of light. I just took stacks with LOMO 3.7x at 5:1 and my settings were ISO 200 and 1/64+.7 power. So there might be room for improvement in that direction as well. At least with Canons the ISO 200 is not a problem - it is the base ISO, or so I've heard.
I had a few of the Yongnuo (560VI, 585 and 622), they were good and there was an optional battery pack (8 NiH) that helped. I melted a YN622 from the abuse massive focus stacks gives them, and had a couple miss fires and ruined my sessions. Also didn't like the various radio formats for the different flashes. After all the battery charging hassles, and melted flash I decided to start looking at strobes, eventually found the Adorama mentioned, these are quite good IMO.

I usually waste lots of light with multiple diffusions (sometimes up to 4 levels, for various reasons), so the extra 5~6X power comes in handy.

Those Lomo 3.7s are great lenses!!

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

mawyatt
Posts: 2497
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:54 pm
Location: Clearwater, Florida

Post by mawyatt »

iconoclastica wrote:I have been a happy user of the cheapest chinese set of studio flashes I could find ($250 for 3 heads with stands, soft boxes and other modifiers) for about ten years now. My pair of speedlights lays largely unused on the shelf. Similar sets can still be found on ebay and in stores.

Th modeling light is a halogene bulb but beware: it gets 220V. If one naively replace it with one that 'just fits' it will get launched, for in Europe that mount is used for 12V bulbs. I now buy 240V bulbs and cut the contacts straight.

The modeling light can be switched off, completely removed or replaced by LEDs. Personally I rarely use it, for the halogen lamps get too hot (even after changing the original 70W ones for 40W and the LED replacement I got isn't that bright.

The spread of light has to be controled by modifiers. A snoot comes in handy. An empty tin of beans with the bottom partly removed works well too.

They have fast recycling times, never get empty and have variable output (usually 1-1/16th or 1-1/64th). The flash duration is longer than that of speedlights. The latter output the full strength but cut it off once the request has been met. Studio flashes load their capacitors to the prerequested level and subsequently dump light until empty.
I had done something similar with the cheap eBay Neewer brand. I had 3 actually blow up, one right next to me, so that started me looking for an alternative that wasn't too expensive. I repaired 2 of the Neewers and one was replaced, the energy voltage doubler capacitors failed (actually exploded) and Replaced with a better quality capacitor.

I got some dimmable LED bulbs ($~4) for the Adorama strobes, these work OK but don't put out lots of light, but at least they don't get hot!!

Did some test long ago (it's on here if you search) and found that flashes aren't as quick as folks think, especially at higher power. The low cost strobes can actually be faster at a given "power level", think energy in Joules not stops. The higher priced strobes are much faster at moderate to high power levels.

So hopefully, do don't have any of those Neewer strobes :roll:

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

clarnibass
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:33 pm

Post by clarnibass »

Thanks everyone. I searched before posting but now finally found maybe a few helpful posts (maybe I'm not searching right... trying godox, studio, flashes, combinations, etc.).

Some things are still not completely clear, so if anyone has links that show actual setups that would be great.
mawyatt wrote:If you are not in the US, check out Godox (SK300II) on eBay, they should be comparably priced, I found a few at $102.46!!
I'm not, and that price is good, but after local VAT, I'm not sure I want to save $40 and gamble that I won't have an issue. International returns are a huge hassle (and I'd have to pay return shipping).
mawyatt wrote:I usually image silicon chips which are small (1~10mm), and use multiple strobes positioned around the setup about 200~400mm from subject.
Just to clarify, I meant the 20mm to 100mm distance from lens to subject. Subjects are usually about 1mm to 5mm (i.e. length of the stack). Magnifications about x1 to x5.
JKT wrote:I've had the same problem with batteries. I'm using three Yongnuo YN560 III flashes with the Yongnuo radio control (I forget which).
Those are the flashes I also use (III and IV versions, but for this purpose they are the same).
JKT wrote:Your lighting setup seems to waste quite a lot of light. I just took stacks with LOMO 3.7x at 5:1 and my settings were ISO 200 and 1/64+.7 power. So there might be room for improvement in that direction as well.
To clarify, in this example there was one flash, using it bounced off the bristol papers I described. Effective aperture was f/11. The power is affected by number of flashes, distance, aperture, setup, so really depends.
In your example, what was the aperture (or effective aperture) and how many flashes? What was the setup?
iconoclastica wrote:The spread of light has to be controled by modifiers. A snoot comes in handy. An empty tin of beans with the bottom partly removed works well too.
I've used a snoot a lot and I can't see how it helps... it only makes the light less diffused... no?
Maybe I'm missing something here. In the example I tried yesterday, the subject was such that I couldn't get the light diffused enough unless it was bounced. Even a couple of silver umbrellas weren't "soft" enough. So I used the white paper around the subject, and it had to be far enough to allow room for the setup and flashes.

Do you (and anyone else) describing non-bounced flashes? Soft boxes ("real" ones) are a lot of hassle to use, really a last resort. also they are not as soft as bounced light, unless they are huge.

Maybe a better setup would be to put a couple of large papers, wrapped around the subject as much as possible, with the flashes pointing towards it? From past experience I think this would be too harsh lighting, if the papers are thin enough to allow enough light to pass, there would be hot spots where the flashes are. It wouldn't be anywhere near as diffused as bounced.

JKT
Posts: 420
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:29 am
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Post by JKT »

mawyatt wrote:I melted a YN622 from the abuse massive focus stacks gives them, and had a couple miss fires and ruined my sessions.
With my power settings, melting is not going to be a problem. Misfires seem to depend on the battery condition of the controller and flashes. In case of flash battery, once it starts, the batteries are pretty much out anyway. That's eliminated with the DC power. I have more problems with power variation and I suspect one of the flashes has problems. I probably should replace the set - I've used them quite a number of years.
mawyatt wrote:Those Lomo 3.7s are great lenses!!
Indeed they are.
clarnibass wrote:In your example, what was the aperture (or effective aperture) and how many flashes? What was the setup?
The NA for LOMO 3.7x is 0.11, so if I'm not mistaken (which is quite possible with optics formulae), the f-number is 4.52 and effective at m=5 is 27.1.

The setup is this:
Image
The diffusor works, but I could likely improve on it.
All the samble bases aim to have the object always at the same level so the light is same.

For low magnification pictures the diffusor is too effective - ISO100 and 1/128 is not enough. I need ND filter. Three flashes is an overkill, but it was easier to get even light that way.

iconoclastica
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:34 pm
Location: Wageningen, Gelderland

Post by iconoclastica »

clarnibass wrote:I've used a snoot a lot and I can't see how it helps... it only makes the light less diffused... no?
Thee's no generic answer to this, except that the snoot is not a diffuser. What is does is help you to get the light where you want it and flag it where you don't want it to be. (Flash-)light just goes everywhere. When I am controlling the light, I don't want the whole room to act as a giant reflector box, so I could use a snoot. The exit of the snoot is a circle of roughly 5cm across, large enough to light a sheet of paper or a coffee cup for a 2mm subject.

Once you're on top of controlling the specular highlights, lighting is primarily a matter of creative choice, rather than technical. Personally, I don't like over-diffused light what makes the image flat and directionless. The snoot is highly directional, but you can combine it with a second one or a reflector. There are so many ways leading to Rome.
Last edited by iconoclastica on Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
--- felix filicis ---

ChrisR
Site Admin
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Post by ChrisR »

I may be wrong too, but I use:
The effective F number at the designed magnification is

M/(2*NA) =3.7/0.22 = 16.8

Note: There's no "+1" for an objective where they're telling you about the M.

Treating it then as lens on extension, the f number for the lens would be
16.8 / (3.7 + 1) = "f/3.58"

So if you use that lens at M= 5, the effective aperture is

(5 + 1) * 3.58 = 21.5

Not so bad :)
Chris R

JKT
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Post by JKT »

Chris,
You are likely right. I didn't include it in the first message as I had no idea what the formula was for microscope objective. When asked, I tried to find something ... and that method usually ends up wrong. :roll:

Thanks for the correction! I'm sure someone chimes in if further correction is needed, but I doubt it. :lol:

mawyatt
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Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:54 pm
Location: Clearwater, Florida

Post by mawyatt »

clarnibass wrote:Thanks everyone. I searched before posting but now finally found maybe a few helpful posts (maybe I'm not searching right... trying godox, studio, flashes, combinations, etc.).

Some things are still not completely clear, so if anyone has links that show actual setups that would be great.
mawyatt wrote:If you are not in the US, check out Godox (SK300II) on eBay, they should be comparably priced, I found a few at $102.46!!
I'm not, and that price is good, but after local VAT, I'm not sure I want to save $40 and gamble that I won't have an issue. International returns are a huge hassle (and I'd have to pay return shipping).
mawyatt wrote:I usually image silicon chips which are small (1~10mm), and use multiple strobes positioned around the setup about 200~400mm from subject.
Just to clarify, I meant the 20mm to 100mm distance from lens to subject. Subjects are usually about 1mm to 5mm (i.e. length of the stack). Magnifications about x1 to x5.
JKT wrote:I've had the same problem with batteries. I'm using three Yongnuo YN560 III flashes with the Yongnuo radio control (I forget which).
Those are the flashes I also use (III and IV versions, but for this purpose they are the same).
JKT wrote:Your lighting setup seems to waste quite a lot of light. I just took stacks with LOMO 3.7x at 5:1 and my settings were ISO 200 and 1/64+.7 power. So there might be room for improvement in that direction as well.
To clarify, in this example there was one flash, using it bounced off the bristol papers I described. Effective aperture was f/11. The power is affected by number of flashes, distance, aperture, setup, so really depends.
In your example, what was the aperture (or effective aperture) and how many flashes? What was the setup?
iconoclastica wrote:The spread of light has to be controled by modifiers. A snoot comes in handy. An empty tin of beans with the bottom partly removed works well too.
I've used a snoot a lot and I can't see how it helps... it only makes the light less diffused... no?
Maybe I'm missing something here. In the example I tried yesterday, the subject was such that I couldn't get the light diffused enough unless it was bounced. Even a couple of silver umbrellas weren't "soft" enough. So I used the white paper around the subject, and it had to be far enough to allow room for the setup and flashes.

Do you (and anyone else) describing non-bounced flashes? Soft boxes ("real" ones) are a lot of hassle to use, really a last resort. also they are not as soft as bounced light, unless they are huge.

Maybe a better setup would be to put a couple of large papers, wrapped around the subject as much as possible, with the flashes pointing towards it? From past experience I think this would be too harsh lighting, if the papers are thin enough to allow enough light to pass, there would be hot spots where the flashes are. It wouldn't be anywhere near as diffused as bounced.
I wouldn't worry too much about the Godox SK300II, the Adorama rebrand version (Studio 300) is very well designed & made (I've taken them apart to study the design and construction, and being an EE somewhat qualified to assess). Now have a total of 8, and not a single issue with any....they have been abused with long stacks with short intervals. These also use the Bowen reflector mount, which is a unwritten standard for light modifiers and many sources for such.

Mine work fine for all my macro studio work, from 1~20X. Sometimes diffuse the reflector with some white shipping foam cut in a circle and placed on the reflector. Not elegant, but works!!

Small (~300mm) light tents are also very effective with multiple strobes, and easy to use. For more diffusion I'll place a smaller light tent inside a larger (400~600mm) tent, this diffuses uniformly very well but eats lots of light.

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

mawyatt
Posts: 2497
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:54 pm
Location: Clearwater, Florida

Post by mawyatt »

JKT wrote:
mawyatt wrote:I melted a YN622 from the abuse massive focus stacks gives them, and had a couple miss fires and ruined my sessions.
With my power settings, melting is not going to be a problem. Misfires seem to depend on the battery condition of the controller and flashes. In case of flash battery, once it starts, the batteries are pretty much out anyway. That's eliminated with the DC power. I have more problems with power variation and I suspect one of the flashes has problems. I probably should replace the set - I've used them quite a number of years.
mawyatt wrote:Those Lomo 3.7s are great lenses!!
Indeed they are.
clarnibass wrote:In your example, what was the aperture (or effective aperture) and how many flashes? What was the setup?
The NA for LOMO 3.7x is 0.11, so if I'm not mistaken (which is quite possible with optics formulae), the f-number is 4.52 and effective at m=5 is 27.1.

The setup is this:
Image
The diffusor works, but I could likely improve on it.
All the samble bases aim to have the object always at the same level so the light is same.

For low magnification pictures the diffusor is too effective - ISO100 and 1/128 is not enough. I need ND filter. Three flashes is an overkill, but it was easier to get even light that way.
JKT,

Very nice setup!! The mounting of the flashes base and the black manifold are clever, did you make these yourself?

I had many mis-fires with various Yonguno flashes mentioned, some were battery related (I was using Enloops too!), but many were not. Also had an output power variability, again some battery related and some not. Very irritating in the middle of a ~600 step stack to find the flashes acting up with mis-fires and uneven output. With the Adorama strobes I've seen very little of this, in fact they are specified for output variability (2%).

One design issue for our long macro stacking use with flashes is the energy source batteries get very hot as does the flash tube and electronics. These are all contained within the flash case, which does not have good thermal capabilities. The batteries are tightly contained is a small area with little in the way of thermal outlets, and my Enloops would get so hot you couldn't hold one!! The flash tubes and heads would also get very hot, with all this in the same container! The speed-light flash tube is only a small cylinder ~5mm dia. and ~25mm long whereas a typical strobe is a circular tube 8~10mm dia. and 60mm across (equivalent ~160mm total length)...significant difference!

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

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