MJKZZ Ultra - anyone tried it?

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ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

mawyatt wrote:When I use the Nikon 200 "Q" as a tube I just mount the camera body with a long ARCA plate sideways parallel to the sensor plane. Later on some camera bodies I went to the camera specific L brackets that are ARCA compatible and wrap around, somewhat molded to the camera body. These provide a more secure camera attachment than a simple plate with the torque better distributed. With these L brackets I haven't encountered any issues with the Nikon 200 lens when used in vertical nor horizontal.

I would think the D5500 with the L bracket mentioned should work fine with your Nikon 200 & objective.

The Hejnar ARCA plate mentioned has the camera body attached to the plate in a conventional manner, the bar then runs under the lens assembly and at the end of the bar a "Y" adapter is bolted thru a slot. The "Y" adapter has roller wheels at the top of the "Y" which engage the lens body resting is the V of the "Y". So the lens is supported at the end and attached to the same bar that supports the camera body. This bar has ARCA grooves which allow direct mounting to a large long ARCA clamp for secure camera/lens attachment. I wrap a number of rubber bands around the lens end and the bottom of the bar, pulling the lens into the "Y" V groove for a tight secure fit.

Best,
How does adding another flexible mount help make the prime lens system more rigid? Perhaps I am not picturing your solution correctly in my mind.

Ultimately, the camera is mounted to something by its 1/4" mount on bottom, correct? Most cameras have rubber on that surface as well, so not such a rigid connection.

The Y mount of course nearly completely eliminates this problem.

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

ray_parkhurst wrote:
mawyatt wrote:When I use the Nikon 200 "Q" as a tube I just mount the camera body with a long ARCA plate sideways parallel to the sensor plane. Later on some camera bodies I went to the camera specific L brackets that are ARCA compatible and wrap around, somewhat molded to the camera body. These provide a more secure camera attachment than a simple plate with the torque better distributed. With these L brackets I haven't encountered any issues with the Nikon 200 lens when used in vertical nor horizontal.

I would think the D5500 with the L bracket mentioned should work fine with your Nikon 200 & objective.

The Hejnar ARCA plate mentioned has the camera body attached to the plate in a conventional manner, the bar then runs under the lens assembly and at the end of the bar a "Y" adapter is bolted thru a slot. The "Y" adapter has roller wheels at the top of the "Y" which engage the lens body resting is the V of the "Y". So the lens is supported at the end and attached to the same bar that supports the camera body. This bar has ARCA grooves which allow direct mounting to a large long ARCA clamp for secure camera/lens attachment. I wrap a number of rubber bands around the lens end and the bottom of the bar, pulling the lens into the "Y" V groove for a tight secure fit.

Best,
How does adding another flexible mount help make the prime lens system more rigid? Perhaps I am not picturing your solution correctly in my mind.

Ultimately, the camera is mounted to something by its 1/4" mount on bottom, correct? Most cameras have rubber on that surface as well, so not such a rigid connection.

The Y mount of course nearly completely eliminates this problem.
The camera wrap around L brackets provides a much larger and secure means of attaching the Nikon bodies I've found. I use the Sunwayfoto ones, like this for my D800E.

http://www.sunwayfoto.com/e_goodsDetail.aspx?gId=1187

As you can see from the site this places a frame part way around the camera body with multiple points for torque distribution and also protect the camera body.

In my experience these work much better than direct camera attachment when a high quality long ARCA clamp holding the L bracket is utilized.

I've been using this "Y" concept for over 6 years now, and can say from experience this works very well as you can see from the Hejnar site I edited (posted site info) after your post.

However, the lens clamp concept originally introduced by Robert using ThorLabs devices, and later developed by Peter for macro specific use (he uses the standard 1/4-20 threads & sized to fit the popular inexpensive 58mm tubes, whereas Thor use 6/32 threads and sized for their tubes) is a better solution IMO. It's very sturdy and supports the lens in multiple locations and the camera body only needs to support it's own weight from the camera mount just like it does with a bellows.

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

mawyatt wrote:
ray_parkhurst wrote:
mawyatt wrote:When I use the Nikon 200 "Q" as a tube I just mount the camera body with a long ARCA plate sideways parallel to the sensor plane. Later on some camera bodies I went to the camera specific L brackets that are ARCA compatible and wrap around, somewhat molded to the camera body. These provide a more secure camera attachment than a simple plate with the torque better distributed. With these L brackets I haven't encountered any issues with the Nikon 200 lens when used in vertical nor horizontal.

I would think the D5500 with the L bracket mentioned should work fine with your Nikon 200 & objective.

The Hejnar ARCA plate mentioned has the camera body attached to the plate in a conventional manner, the bar then runs under the lens assembly and at the end of the bar a "Y" adapter is bolted thru a slot. The "Y" adapter has roller wheels at the top of the "Y" which engage the lens body resting is the V of the "Y". So the lens is supported at the end and attached to the same bar that supports the camera body. This bar has ARCA grooves which allow direct mounting to a large long ARCA clamp for secure camera/lens attachment. I wrap a number of rubber bands around the lens end and the bottom of the bar, pulling the lens into the "Y" V groove for a tight secure fit.

Best,
How does adding another flexible mount help make the prime lens system more rigid? Perhaps I am not picturing your solution correctly in my mind.

Ultimately, the camera is mounted to something by its 1/4" mount on bottom, correct? Most cameras have rubber on that surface as well, so not such a rigid connection.

The Y mount of course nearly completely eliminates this problem.
The camera wrap around L brackets provides a much larger and secure means of attaching the Nikon bodies I've found. I use the Sunwayfoto ones, like this for my D800E.

http://www.sunwayfoto.com/e_goodsDetail.aspx?gId=1187

As you can see from the site this places a frame part way around the camera body with multiple points for torque distribution and also protect the camera body.

In my experience these work much better than direct camera attachment when a high quality long ARCA clamp holding the L bracket is utilized.

I've been using this "Y" concept for over 6 years now, and can say from experience this works very well as you can see from the Hejnar site I edited (posted site info) after your post.

However, the lens clamp concept originally introduced by Robert using ThorLabs devices, and later developed by Peter for macro specific use (he uses the standard 1/4-20 threads & sized to fit the popular inexpensive 58mm tubes, whereas Thor use 6/32 threads and sized for their tubes) is a better solution IMO. It's very sturdy and supports the lens in multiple locations and the camera body only needs to support it's own weight from the camera mount just like it does with a bellows.

Best,
Peter's TLCS clamps look great. I will need to give some a try.

That Sunway mount does look like it would improve things slightly. It's custom-made for particular camera, but can you confirm that it actually contacts the camera around the front side on the extra contoured portion of the mount? Is that area of the mount rubber-coated, or is there direct contact of metal to metal? If it's a hard metal to metal contact on that front surface, then the torque is indeed reduced, though I would still think the torques and dynamics are unfavorable.

Here's a crude drawing of the moments for a standard flat mount, where the moment of the lens vs the 1/4" mount is balanced by that of the rubber mounting surface vs the 1/4" mount:

Image

And here's a similar drawing showing the small improvement offered by the Sunway mount. Actually, if there is direct metal to metal contact, then the Sunway mount offers more improvement than implied here, since the rubber bottom camera surface is effectively taken out of the picture.

Image

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

Ray,

Just got home and checked the L bracket on the D800E. The bottom of the D800E has a rubberized patch around the 1/4-20 mount and another small thin rectangular patch toward the camera right. The Sunwayfoto L bracket is beautifully machined and fits around to the front of the camera body with a wide lip and couple lips on the rear. So the camera is held from the bottom with bolt and front and back with the edge lips pressing against the camera body and the left side has the vertical ARCA plate which is pressed up against the camera side.

The camera front, back & side areas where the bracket engages the camera are the body of the camera with whatever protective coating Nikon uses which is pretty hard and not the protective rubber.

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

mawyatt wrote:Ray,

Just got home and checked the L bracket on the D800E. The bottom of the D800E has a rubberized patch around the 1/4-20 mount and another small thin rectangular patch toward the camera right. The Sunwayfoto L bracket is beautifully machined and fits around to the front of the camera body with a wide lip and couple lips on the rear. So the camera is held from the bottom with bolt and front and back with the edge lips pressing against the camera body and the left side has the vertical ARCA plate which is pressed up against the camera side.

The camera front, back & side areas where the bracket engages the camera are the body of the camera with whatever protective coating Nikon uses which is pretty hard and not the protective rubber.

Best,
So it contacts front and rear on metal against rubberized surface? That's pretty good, approximately doubling the restorative moment vs my drawing.

Ultimately, the best test of rigidity of these systems is to simply push on the objective and see how much force it takes to move it by a small amount, say a pixel or two (smallest visible movements).

clarnibass
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Post by clarnibass »

Thanks again. The lens support sounds decent. I think I'll use that idea but try to find an already made collar that would fit in the middle or end of the lens and try to find a way to attach it to a long Arca plate. Since the setup doesn't change (same plate and lens) I might just machine a very simple rod with a hole in the correct length to support pretty accurately, then use a long screw (modifying the screw so it's easy to open by hand, if I can't find one like that).

I looked for a plate specific to the D5500 and as far as I can tell no one makes one (let alone an L bracket). The universal ones don't seem to have a lot of adjustment to the side so hard to say if they would work that well. It seems it's a basic model so not worth making something like that for it (I have a specific plate for my FX camera).

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

clarnibass wrote:Thanks again. The lens support sounds decent. I think I'll use that idea but try to find an already made collar that would fit in the middle or end of the lens and try to find a way to attach it to a long Arca plate. Since the setup doesn't change (same plate and lens) I might just machine a very simple rod with a hole in the correct length to support pretty accurately, then use a long screw (modifying the screw so it's easy to open by hand, if I can't find one like that).

I looked for a plate specific to the D5500 and as far as I can tell no one makes one (let alone an L bracket). The universal ones don't seem to have a lot of adjustment to the side so hard to say if they would work that well. It seems it's a basic model so not worth making something like that for it (I have a specific plate for my FX camera).
I don't think the generic L brackets will provide the tight mount as the Sunwayfoto mount since they won't have the lips that help secure the fit to the specific camera body.

Regarding the 200m F4 lens mount, maybe a tripod lens collar mount like this, or slight adaptation would work. If you try this tripod lens mount please let us know how this works as it might be beneficial for others (myself included).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Metal-Tripod-C ... SwAuZX2m7b

I curious if anyone knows interior the diameter of this Nikon mount?

Here's a Canon mount that indicates 66mm interior diameter that should also work.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-66mm-Metal ... Swz~paRd6o

The Nikon 200mm F4 "Q" is a good tube lens for APC smaller sensors, but not so good for FF sensors. It vignettes and the corners are soft, even see some slight corner softness with an smaller APC sensor.

The Raynox 150 (208.3mm) and Sigma FSA (200mm) produce better results with Mitutoyo objectives on FF sensors and I believe even on APC sensors (tho I haven't compared such).

Best,

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

dickb
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Post by dickb »

I came across this list of diameters of tripod collars, this may be of some use:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/114 ... enses.html

clarnibass
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Post by clarnibass »

Just an update.

I bought the Hiwin rail from MJKZZ, it's the P version (for Precision) which is supposedly the same but made to a slightly higher tolerance. Looks very good and pretty heavy duty.
It comes with a bar with T-slot where you can mount it and attach the target and use it as a complete setup, which I probably will for some things.

I ordered a Mitutoyo objective and it's supposed to get here in a couple of weeks.

I'm using a 200mm lens and I ordered the smallest lens collar I could find and a long arca plate, and going to connect both camera and lens collar to it. I can attach the collar either to the smooth part of the focusing ring or near the end of the lens. The former probably with about 1mm thick rubco (a rubber and cork composite material I have) and for the latter I can make an aluminium ring to fill the gap.

Once the lens and a couple of other things get here I can finish the setup.

Thanks again!

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

I've recently done my homework on the MJKZZ Ultra Rail System. The HIWIN rail in MJKZZ Ultra Kit appears to be a direct copy of the THK-KR26, even the hole mounting dimensions are the same. The KR26 is a bigger and heavier rail than the KR20, so maybe a better choice for long heavy lens/camera setups, although I haven't had any issues with the KR20 in either horizontal or vertical use with Nikon Full Frame bodies and the long and heavy Nikkor PN105, or 200mm tube lens assemblies with heavy Mitutoyo's hanging off the ends :roll:

HIWIN seems to have a good reputation as a quality rail, so I'm sure your new Ultra Rail system will perform admirably with the future Mitutoyos :D

I like to use long ARCA plates with my KR20 and these fit perfectly, almost like the KR20 was made to mount to the ARCA format. Just 4 precisely drilled and tapped holes in the plate are required, I even accomplished this with my cheap tools!!

The HIWIN (KR26) has a wider base (~50mm) than the KR20 (~40mm), and the ARCA plates are ~40mm wide (ones without side tabs). So mounting the HIWIN using an ARCA plate may not be as simple as the KR20 because the HIWIN mounting holes appear to be just wide enough than when the ARCA plate is drilled the holes will engage part of the ARCA plate interior walls (hollow perimeter sections in plate front). It's appears very close and haven't done this (yet). If so this wouldn't be a disaster, but not quality machining work like your used too :roll:

The mounting bars in MJKZZ rail kits have holes that are 60mm apart and can slide in the 20X80 extruded base bars supplied with the kit. These are attached to the rail bottom with M4 bolts (I believe) and with M5 T-Nuts to the base bar and allow the rail to slide and be positioned relatively easily. This offers a good starting point for the setup, and easy to get going.

Later if you continue with the 20X80 base type, a M6 based 40X80, or better 60X90 extruded bars can provide a more rigid and longer base than the supplied 20X80 bars (overseas shipping restrictions prevent longer bars from vendors like MJKZZ & Wemacro I believe). I have a 700mm long 20X80 and 40X80 bars received Monday from Misumi, and may order the 60X90 bar later if I decide and have time to look into this (working on another Thor Labs based setup now preparing for a massive upcoming chip imaging effort, so limited time).

The 60X90 bar has the T-Nut slots located such that one is centered and two other slots are on each side at 30mm from the center slot, this places the two outer most slots at 60mm apart for a fit to the mounting bar with 60mm spaced holes and has a center slot to allow other setups to be centered. One could use an ARCA rail clamp centered longways upon the 60X90 base bar, as well as the 60mm mounting bars, so a versatile setup could emerge with the 60X90 base bar.

Anyway, hope this helps, and good luck with your Ultra Rail.

Keep us informed on your progress.

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

clarnibass
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Post by clarnibass »

Arca plates are about 38mm wide. The 50mm Hiwin rail has two small plates on the bottom that allow it to connect to those bars.
There are a couple options to connect it to an Arca plate. I haven't measured accurately so these are pretty rough measurements but should be close enough.

Those two small plates are attached to the rail using two M4 screws (for each plate), threaded in the plates, through holes in the rail, about 25mm apart (centers of holes). That's about 29mm total from edge of the cut area (the threads). The width of the Arca plate inside the dovetail is about 31mm. So there is enough clearance so the screws don't stick out from the side or interfere if you want to slide the plate in a slightly loose clamp. For this you need to remove the two small plates and put the Arca plate instead.

Alternatively, each of those two small plates also has two M3 threaded holes, about 18mm apart (centers). Seems that neither option would interfere with the Arca plate.
This has a few advantages:
- No need to tap, just drill through holes
- Those holes can be less accurate and I'd almost be temped to just mark and drill by hand :)
- The two small plates can be left in place for changing setups between Arca plate and T-slot bar, so less hassle

The downsides I guess are slightly less rigid (smaller screws and close together) but probably completely insignificant in my case... or maybe any case.

Hopefully I will test it soon with the macro lens, so I don't have to wait for the objective lens and other things. I just need batteries for the remotes which I don't yet have :)

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

The two bars that come with the Ultra kit are the same as used with the MJKZZ THK-KR20 & KR26 kits. These have two sets of tapped holes, the smaller closer holes are 18mm apart I recall (at work so can't measure) and are for the KR20 rail, the wider 25mm holes for the KR-26 & HIWIN. The KR20 has recessed holes for mounting in the base under the screw as does the KR-26 and HIWIN. So you just carefully slide the bolts into the recessed holes and bolt to the bars, then bars bolt to extrusions with M5 T-Nuts & bolt.

I just drilled and tapped 4 holes in the ARCA plate to match up with the recessed holes in the KR20 base (actually has 6 holes, but I used 4) and used the same bolts as for the MJKZZ bar. This works beautifully and looks professional, and allows ARCA clamp use.

As mentioned the HIWIN(KR-26) is wider at 50mm, but does have the mounting platform on the bottom that is not as wide as 50mm, so the ARCA plate is wide enough to cover the mounting platform area but not wide enough to be flush with the rail side as it does with the KR20. So it might not look as nice as the KR20 with the ARCA plate somewhat recessed under the HIWIN (KR-26) sides.

I was worried that the 25mm spacing might be just enough to break through the ARCA plate inside wall when drilled and tapped. Even if this did happen, the proper mounting bolts length shouldn't protrude into the ARCA plate cavity, so probably too picky a point to worry about. I'll probably give it a go when I can get some time.

I do have the proper holes drilled and tapped for both the KR20 and KR26 (HIWIN) in the Thor Drop-On Sliding Clamps for the 95mm extrusion rails. This allows a very secure & rigid direct mount which should be about as good as you can get for the focus rails and still have some degree flexibility. I have some multiple chip imaging sessions coming up to put all this to test.

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

clarnibass
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Post by clarnibass »

Just a small update. I got the collar and it happens to fit without anything added right over the focus ring (the knurled part). At least on the Nikon 200mm AI lens, I don't know about other models. It is a collar that is meant for the Canon 70-200mm f/4.

I found two types, one with the tightening knob farther down and one where it's higher. I got the latter because... as I suspected the built in arca plate of the collar is lower than the camera plate (by approx 14mm). I can either add a spacer between the camera and arca plate or cut the arca plate off the collar and drill and tap a 1/4-20 thread hole. The collar with the low knob wouldn't allow the latter option.

BTW I got an aluminium collar and maybe should have gotten the plastic one (it was available in both materials). I think it's unnecessarily heavy and the plastic would be enough for this extra support.

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

Do you think the collar is sturdy enough to mount the camera/lens combo like you would for normal telephoto lens use, and better than just mounting the camera by it's 1/4-20 base.

Please proved the collar details, I might give this a shot since I think the 200mm Nikon AI and "Q" use the same knurled section, at least they look like they might be the same.

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

mawyatt wrote:Do you think the collar is sturdy enough to mount the camera/lens combo like you would for normal telephoto lens use, and better than just mounting the camera by it's 1/4-20 base.

Please proved the collar details, I might give this a shot since I think the 200mm Nikon AI and "Q" use the same knurled section, at least they look like they might be the same.

Best,
Certainly mounting both camera and lens in a 2-point configuration will be far more rigid than either just camera or just lens.

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