MJKZZ Ultra - anyone tried it?

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clarnibass
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MJKZZ Ultra - anyone tried it?

Post by clarnibass »

Hi

Has anyone tried the MJKZZ Ultra rail? It is supposed to be industrial quality so I assume more rigid than their Precision one.

The screw pitch is 2.0mm, I'm wondering if that's a disadvantage in any way?

For now I don't plan on using higher than x10 magnifications, but I want to get something decent the first time and not waste my time.

I've made my manual rail with linear rails and looks like the MJKZZ ones use them too. The tubes/rods in holes or dove tail ones needs to be made to almost an absurd accuracy to achieve the same IME (assuming these still relatively low cost products... not some million dollar milling center with scraped ways).

It's too much of a hassle for me to attach a motor to my manual rail and I don't know and don't want to know anything to do with programming and building a home made controller.
I want something that is mostly "plug & play" in terms of it working. Rather not get a motor from one place, rail from another, controller from another, etc.

Another quick question, when using an infinite objective, is there an advantage to using one of the long extensions with a lens (for example sold by MJKZZ and WeMacro) instead of a Nikon 200mm f/4 lens?

Thank you

mawyatt
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Re: MJKZZ Ultra - anyone tried it?

Post by mawyatt »

clarnibass wrote:Hi

Has anyone tried the MJKZZ Ultra rail? It is supposed to be industrial quality so I assume more rigid than their Precision one.

The screw pitch is 2.0mm, I'm wondering if that's a disadvantage in any way?

For now I don't plan on using higher than x10 magnifications, but I want to get something decent the first time and not waste my time.

I've made my manual rail with linear rails and looks like the MJKZZ ones use them too. The tubes/rods in holes or dove tail ones needs to be made to almost an absurd accuracy to achieve the same IME (assuming these still relatively low cost products... not some million dollar milling center with scraped ways).

It's too much of a hassle for me to attach a motor to my manual rail and I don't know and don't want to know anything to do with programming and building a home made controller.
I want something that is mostly "plug & play" in terms of it working. Rather not get a motor from one place, rail from another, controller from another, etc.

Another quick question, when using an infinite objective, is there an advantage to using one of the long extensions with a lens (for example sold by MJKZZ and WeMacro) instead of a Nikon 200mm f/4 lens?

Thank you
I have a very similar rail to Peter's (MJKZZ) Ultra Rail System. Mine is based around the THK-KR20 linear stage and Peter's new Ultra Rail is based upon a very similar almost identical linear stage from HIWIN. I used Peter's motor and mounting kit for the THK KR20 which is the same components as he uses with the HIWIN I believe, and also use his new Stand Alone Controller which is what he offers with the Ultra Rail System. I don't think the 2mm pitch is a problem since you have a 400 step motor which produces 5 micron steps before micro- stepping, and with 1/4 micro-steps you have 1.25 micron steps which should be small enough for most high magnification macro work.

Overall this should produce an extremely good stacking rail system that is a step up (but more expensive) from his Precision system and the popular Wemacro system.

The only thing I've done different than Peter's Ultra Rail System is use a different mounting ARCA based scheme which allows easier coarse adjustment and removal/remounting as discussed here.

https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... t=thk+kr20

Regarding the extension vs. using the Nikon 200mm F4 "Q" lens, the answer is yes! The Nikon 200 is an excellent "tube lens" for the Mitutoyo inf. objectives and the easiest to use (only requires a 52mm to Mitutoyo thread or RMS thread adapter) but will vignette slightly on a full frame sensor. The popular Raynox 150 (208.3mm) and Sigma LSA (200mm) are slightly better as "tube lenses" IMO, but require a complex set of extension tubes and adapters (or a bellows) which creates a very long overall lens assembly. This places a large torque on the camera mount of not supported, so using a lens support mechanism is very beneficial especially in horizontal setups.

If you get into other lenses which require long extensions like the Rayfact & PN105 shown here (the Sigma LSA is shown later in the thread) these supports become necessary.

https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... ns+support

Hope this helps,

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

While I am a big fan of Peter's MJKZZ (and likewise William's WeMacro) offerings, if you have a linear rail system you like already, don't be afraid to add a drive system to it. You must be at least somewhat mechanically-inclined to make the rail in the first place, and adding the drive shaft and mechanics is not that hard, unless there is some physical limiting factor that makes it so.

I have achieved good results from simple acme screw actuators, using the readily-available "zero backlash" nuts. Most of my systems have been vertical, so I don't need to worry so much about backlash, but for a horizontal setup it's nice to have a zero-backlash system. Of course for it to work, your linear rail system must be very "free" to move with just the force of the spring within the zero-backlash nut. You can get 8mm acme screws with 2mm pitch very cheaply from eBay sellers (maybe all from SEA though), and NEMA17 motors with connectors that work directly with MJKZZ controllers are also quite easy to get and cheap. Mounting brackets and couplers are likewise readily available. If you have interest in putting such together I can give you a suggested parts list.

Edit2: WeMacro also sells separate motor + controller packages so you can go with either controller and motor combo.

Edited to add: I see in the pic of the new Ultra Rail, and in Mike's earlier response, that the new offerings use a HIWIN "Industrial Robot" rail (used). The pic shows a model KK5002. For reference, here is a link to the HIWIN rail documentation. The rail looks excellent, and likely gives similar performance vs the THK KR20 and KR26 rails that I have been so happy with:

https://motioncontrolsystems.hiwin.com/ ... atalog.pdf

clarnibass
Posts: 130
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Re: MJKZZ Ultra - anyone tried it?

Post by clarnibass »

Thank you very much!
mawyatt wrote:The popular Raynox 150 (208.3mm) and Sigma LSA (200mm) are slightly better as "tube lenses" IMO, but require a complex set of extension tubes and adapters (or a bellows) which creates a very long overall lens assembly.
In what way would the photo be better with this instead of a Nikon 200mm lens? Is it something repeatable that can be easily shown like contrast, sharpness, aberrations, etc.? Does it vary depending on the objective?

I don't mind the vignetting so much since I have a DX camera specifically for macro (got it mainly for the higher resolution than the FX).

It looks like MJKZZ also has a complete kit that allows to use the Raynox and all I need is the Raynox 150 itself. Never seen or heard of a Raynox 150 (or Sigma LSA, or Raynox 250 also mentioned on MJKZZ), do you a link to what that is exactly?
ray_parkhurst wrote:While I am a big fan of Peter's MJKZZ (and likewise William's WeMacro) offerings, if you have a linear rail system you like already, don't be afraid to add a drive system to it. You must be at least somewhat mechanically-inclined to make the rail in the first place, and adding the drive shaft and mechanics is not that hard, unless there is some physical limiting factor that makes it so.
It just so happens that I use a lathe and mill as part of my work, but I just rather buy a complete system and not mess with it. I can deal with the mechanical stuff, but motor, controller, cables, etc. just not something I want to do. I hooked up my lathe with a VFD and all connections and I'd gladly never do that again :)
I won't bore you with too many details, but for example, my manual rail was made when I didn't even consider I'd ever use a motor one so it's not that simple to modify. Or I'd have to waste at least half a day just to get a small piece of aluminium.

I think I'll go with the Ultra rail.
I might also get a Raynox lens and that kit for attaching it if it makes a significant difference.

mawyatt
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Re: MJKZZ Ultra - anyone tried it?

Post by mawyatt »

clarnibass wrote:Thank you very much!
mawyatt wrote:The popular Raynox 150 (208.3mm) and Sigma LSA (200mm) are slightly better as "tube lenses" IMO, but require a complex set of extension tubes and adapters (or a bellows) which creates a very long overall lens assembly.
In what way would the photo be better with this instead of a Nikon 200mm lens? Is it something repeatable that can be easily shown like contrast, sharpness, aberrations, etc.? Does it vary depending on the objective?

I don't mind the vignetting so much since I have a DX camera specifically for macro (got it mainly for the higher resolution than the FX).

It looks like MJKZZ also has a complete kit that allows to use the Raynox and all I need is the Raynox 150 itself. Never seen or heard of a Raynox 150 (or Sigma LSA, or Raynox 250 also mentioned on MJKZZ), do you a link to what that is exactly?
ray_parkhurst wrote:While I am a big fan of Peter's MJKZZ (and likewise William's WeMacro) offerings, if you have a linear rail system you like already, don't be afraid to add a drive system to it. You must be at least somewhat mechanically-inclined to make the rail in the first place, and adding the drive shaft and mechanics is not that hard, unless there is some physical limiting factor that makes it so.
It just so happens that I use a lathe and mill as part of my work, but I just rather buy a complete system and not mess with it. I can deal with the mechanical stuff, but motor, controller, cables, etc. just not something I want to do. I hooked up my lathe with a VFD and all connections and I'd gladly never do that again :)
I won't bore you with too many details, but for example, my manual rail was made when I didn't even consider I'd ever use a motor one so it's not that simple to modify. Or I'd have to waste at least half a day just to get a small piece of aluminium.

I think I'll go with the Ultra rail.
I might also get a Raynox lens and that kit for attaching it if it makes a significant difference.
The Nikon 200mm F4 "Q" will vignette on FF but you said you use DX so much better. IQ from the Nikon is very good, I just did a chip image stack with it & the Mitty 5X. It's os easy to use, just a single 52mm to Mitty thread adapter. If you use the Nikon watch out for focus creep when in the vertical mode, use some Gaffers tape to help hold the focus at infinity.

The Sigma LSA is considered one of the best 200mm tube lenses, Robert mentions it here.

https://www.closeuphotography.com/mityutoyo-objectives

Sometimes they show up on eBay. They are easy to use since the threads are standard 52mm. I have lens fixture with the Sigma and Peter's excellent lens clamps & 58mm tubes.

The Raynox 150 is quite good also, but has some very slight CA in the corners. There was a test here on many tube lenses (use search), the Raynox 150 was surprising good. This is available at B&H for $50!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?N ... av-Search=

The Raynox has some non-standard threads that make finding adapters difficult, if you search here you'll find info on making the Raynox 150 as a tube lens. With Peter's lens kit for the Raynox 150 you shouldn't need to find any adapters and whatnot.

If you decide on the Ultra Rail System, be sure to order many spare lens clamps. You eventually will use these on all your custom macro lens assemblies. I know since I've done just that...converted all my custom macro lenses setups to his clamps, Nikkor PN105, Sigma 200mm LSA, Raynox 150 & 250, and a few others coming soon!!

Good luck on creating your setup, keep us posted as to your progress.

Hope this helps.

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

mawyatt
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Re: MJKZZ Ultra - anyone tried it?

Post by mawyatt »

clarnibass wrote:
It just so happens that I use a lathe and mill as part of my work, but I just rather buy a complete system and not mess with it. I can deal with the mechanical stuff, but motor, controller, cables, etc. just not something I want to do. I hooked up my lathe with a VFD and all connections and I'd gladly never do that again :)
I won't bore you with too many details, but for example, my manual rail was made when I didn't even consider I'd ever use a motor one so it's not that simple to modify. Or I'd have to waste at least half a day just to get a small piece of aluminium.
I will gladly help you with the electrical stuff, that's what I do (EE chip designer & adjunct Prof). But the machining is where I get bit :D

Just have a very cheap (Harbor Freight) drill press and some cheap drills & taps, Dremel, files & hacksaw. I get by but not quality work :roll: I use a lot of black nail polish to hide my work :shock:


Hey this brings up an interesting idea for the moderators, what about a special help site where folks with skills and resources exchange capability in a barter type arrangement? I help you and you help me kind of exchange??

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

ray_parkhurst
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Re: MJKZZ Ultra - anyone tried it?

Post by ray_parkhurst »

mawyatt wrote: Hey this brings up an interesting idea for the moderators, what about a special help site where folks with skills and resources exchange capability in a barter type arrangement? I help you and you help me kind of exchange??

Best,
I like that idea. I like building stuff and helping folks so I'm in.

ChrisR
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Post by ChrisR »

We're ruminating. We've done so before, without a perfect solution presenting itself.

Avoiding "commercial" activity is an obvious necessity.
We could use the existing forum structure, or a modification.

OK, any :idea: Bright ideas? :idea:
Chris R

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

Perhaps shared projects? Start with a discussion about what folks need and are looking to build. Break that down into a few projects, with Champions and team members. The project components and requirements are then broken down, and folks volunteer to identify and source key components for the team in the best ways for minimizing costs and utilizing resources.

Extras could be created and made available to others on the forum at cost. This may help lower overall cost as well.

clarnibass
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Re: MJKZZ Ultra - anyone tried it?

Post by clarnibass »

mawyatt wrote:I will gladly help you with the electrical stuff, that's what I do (EE chip designer & adjunct Prof). But the machining is where I get bit :D
Thank you, I really appreciate your offer and the help I already got from everyone here, but that's exactly how it went with the lathe VFD (got tons of help) and it's just not going to happen this time :)
mawyatt wrote:Just have a very cheap (Harbor Freight) drill press and some cheap drills & taps, Dremel, files & hacksaw. I get by but not quality work :roll: I use a lot of black nail polish to hide my work :shock:
Maybe that's for another forum but yeah... I have a lot of this stuff... :)
You get tired of cheap tools if you have to use them all the time (I use these more than my camera). Wait until you need to tap aluminium-bronze... had to get a special tap just for those two holes... :)

OK last question for now: What's the best setup using the Nikon 200mm lens? Mine is the AI version. I'm using mostly a Nikon D5500 for this which is going to be wobbly and maybe too heavy with all the weight on the camera lens mount. I have a more rigid FX but I like the D5500 for macro because of the higher resolution for same area.

thanks again!

ChrisR
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Post by ChrisR »

What's the best setup using the Nikon 200mm lens?
Do you mean which focus rail, or how to support the lens?
If anyone knows of a 52m/f to Arca plate adjustable foot, please holler!
Top part has to rotate, use a locknut, rotating clamp, or be full diameter, or something :(

Image
Chris R

mawyatt
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Re: MJKZZ Ultra - anyone tried it?

Post by mawyatt »

clarnibass wrote: Maybe that's for another forum but yeah... I have a lot of this stuff... :)
You get tired of cheap tools if you have to use them all the time (I use these more than my camera). Wait until you need to tap aluminium-bronze... had to get a special tap just for those two holes... :)
Agree if you make your living then you want the best tools for the job, same goes for electronic instruments & CAD tools. We have CAD software tools that cost over $1M per user, but if you are designing a chip that's going to cost $20~30M or more, you make the investment :shock:

Electronic lab test equipment is same story, we have multiple lab RF instruments that cost over $250K :?
clarnibass wrote:OK last question for now: What's the best setup using the Nikon 200mm lens? Mine is the AI version. I'm using mostly a Nikon D5500 for this which is going to be wobbly and maybe too heavy with all the weight on the camera lens mount. I have a more rigid FX but I like the D5500 for macro because of the higher resolution for same area.


I just did an image of a chip from a wafer sliver with the Nikon 200mm F4 "Q" and Mitutoyo 5X. It's was on a Vertical Stand but have used it on a Horizontal Stand as well. The Nikon F mounts on their lens is pretty well built I've found and easily supports the Mitutoyo hanging on the front. However this isn't the case for custom built lens assemblies based upon extension tubes which are much longer that the Nikon 200mm, and the F mount adapters are not as good either. These require some means of support, and Peter's clamps or the ThorLabs clamps Robert uses are a good solution. I used a "Y" on the end for my long lenses, this was based upon a long Hejnar ARCA plate and "Y" end that was designed for long telephoto lens before getting Peter's clamps, which are much sturdier and a better solution overall.

The Hejnar ARCA plate and "Y" end should work on the Nikon 200mm AI F4 (haven't tried it tho), since it's adaptable the "Y" connection is open ended on the top and not a closed clamp. I held the lens in place with a bunch of rubber bands which worked OK.

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

clarnibass
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Post by clarnibass »

Thanks, yes, I meant physically attach the camera+lens+objective to the rail. I don't like it hanging off a Nikon D5500, very wobbly that way even if the camera can technically hold that weight. Probably less of an issue with a vertical setup (I use horizontal only). With my current setup - a macro lens and ridiculous amount of extension tubes - the D5500 basically feels like a lens hood :)

My 200mm lens is an AI, later than a Q, though on either I don't see a great place to use a collar when focused at infinity (maybe possible on the Q and I can't see it in photos?). How do you attach this to a stand? I've seen the support and considered it, but wondering if there's a better way?

Thanks

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

I ran into this issue a while back and gave up on the prime lens concept in favor of bellows approach. I have never been truly successful at setting up a prime lens infinite setup that was stable enough to satisfy me, and I'm working vertically. That said, a Y clamp seems like it should provide excellent stability and simple adjustability.

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

When I use the Nikon 200 "Q" as a tube I just mount the camera body with a long ARCA plate sideways parallel to the sensor plane. Later on some camera bodies I went to the camera specific L brackets that are ARCA compatible and wrap around, somewhat molded to the camera body. These provide a more secure camera attachment than a simple plate with the torque better distributed. With these L brackets I haven't encountered any issues with the Nikon 200 lens when used in vertical nor horizontal.

I would think the D5500 with the L bracket mentioned should work fine with your Nikon 200 & objective.

The Hejnar ARCA plate mentioned has the camera body attached to the plate in a conventional manner, the bar then runs under the lens assembly and at the end of the bar a "Y" adapter is bolted thru a slot. The "Y" adapter has roller wheels at the top of the "Y" which engage the lens body resting is the V of the "Y". So the lens is supported at the end and attached to the same bar that supports the camera body. This bar has ARCA grooves which allow direct mounting to a large long ARCA clamp for secure camera/lens attachment. I wrap a number of rubber bands around the lens end and the bottom of the bar, pulling the lens into the "Y" V groove for a tight secure fit.

Edit: Here's a link to the Hejnar ARCA plate & "Y" adapter. I should mention that I don't use this as shown in the Hejnar site. I support the lens end as shown with the "Y" adapter but mount the ARCA plate directly to the camera bottom, then the plate is attached to the focus rail by a long ARCA clamp. Sometimes I've directly attached the ARCA plate to the focus rail without the ARCA clamp for the least mechanical interfaces, but found the ARCA clamp method was plenty secure enough for my work and way more user friendly (easy lens/camera removal, mount & coarse positioning).

http://www.hejnarphotostore.com/product-p/llsp3b.htm

Best,
Last edited by mawyatt on Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

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