confused newbie bellows extension tubes FF or Crop Lomo 3.7x

Photocherry · Post by **Photocherry** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:50 am

Hi everyone,

Although I've been reading the threads on here for several months, this is my first time posting. I wanted to say a big hello

and tell you how amazed I am with all the talent, information and guidance that is on this site wow!!!

I've had a go at focus stacking before but never gone beyond 1:1

Im on a tight budget as I am a mature student just about to start my last year in uni but knowing I will be staying in alot, gives me ample opportunity to practice macro photography.

After reading threads on objectives I found the Lomo 3.7x to be something that was affordable and I wanted to try, and really liked this post

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... +objective

My macro kit so far consists of the following:

Nikon D90 or D610
Tamron 90mm 1:1
Tamron 70:300 non VR
Lomo 3.7x Objective
RMS adapter
52mm to 52mm male to male adapter
52mm to 52mm female to female adapter
Proxxon KT70 (awaiting delivery)
Cheap focusing rail (£20)
2 x off camera flash
manfrotto tripod
Manfrotto ballhead / geared head

My confusion relates to which camera ( full frame or cropped sensor) I should be using when I finally start coupling everything together and should I purchase bellows or extension tubes to get the desired reach? (which I think is around 150mm from what I read but again i'm not to sure

)

I have also noted that I need to get an arca swiss clamp to attach my camera to the proxxon aswell as bellows or some kind of extension tubes

The maximum I can spend is £100, I also have an amazon voucher for £30, please could anyone suggest the best way for me to start this new adventure on this tight budget?

Thanks lots

Cherry

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:45 am

Cherry, welcome aboard!

Can you clarify, please, what sort of "RMS adapter" you have? What threads (or other fitting) does it have on the backside?

--Rik

Photocherry · Post by **Photocherry** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:59 am

Hi thanks Rik, it's great on here

It was from eBay and it said it was female 36 TPI to 52mm male RMS

I have seen someone use the lomo Objective straight on camera but they said they also use extension tubes at times.

I really like the look of bellows especially the canon fd and olympus om which are in my £100 price range but stuck as to how to attach to nikon f mount or to the objective

ChrisR · Post by **ChrisR** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:53 pm

Welcome to the forum Cherry.

It looks like you just have to join a few things together... you've got some sound parts there.

Lomo should prove a good choice. After seeing a result recently I thought I'd better get one

The lens is designed to have 150mm between the rear of the mounting flange and the sensor. If you're miles (cms) off then it'll introduce aberrations. It's not going to be too fussy, but you won't get a huge magnification range , so I'd look at it as fixed.
42mm extension tubes are very cheap( or 52mm would be preferable, if you find them cheap) and 2 sets at 60+mm would cover all you need.
You'll need a thread to Nikon adapter. If you go with 42mm it'll be a flat thing with a 42mm female hole. If you go 52mm, which is less popular, "Macro Reversing adapters" are very handy onthe camera. You have a female-female 52 if the thread's the wrong way round.

You should expect to have some issue somewhere with field coverage, esp with the D610, but the D5000 should be fine. Often your corners won't matter too much, ... subject dependent.

Your depth of field will be something like 35 microns. (0.035 millimeters). At the lens end you'll need to get to 52mm for your RMS adapter. So again , 52mm tubes would be the more convenient.

Bellows sound good, but the resolution you have is set by the 0.11 NA of the objective, so if you intend to get more magnificaion it'll be pretty much "empty" - you already have enough pixels.

Then you needs lots of Kleenex. Not only for when your precious bit of flower drops on to the floor and gets damaged, but also as a diffuser. You will need lots of diffusion.
Best way with a Nikon is to use second curtain flash sync, a 2 second exposure & a dim room so ambient light doesn't affect the exposure. Then everything has stopped wobbling when the flash fires. Suggest you start with something like spice seeds - they sit still;).

Good luck, keep in touch!

ChrisR · Post by **ChrisR** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:13 pm

I bought a set of ebay item 230998684397 a few months ago, The intermediate threads are 52mm and perfectly good. I just asked if the Nikon ones are too, but it doesn't matter much, you can put the M/F ends on to each other as a piece of extension. The camera bayonets on the cheap tubes can be pretty poor anyway.
There ARE sets for £3.53 - no idea what they're like!

M42 tubes would need adapters and may cause vignetting on the D610.

Photocherry · Post by **Photocherry** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:31 pm

Thanks so much for all this information Chris

it looks for now from all that you mentioned that tubes are the way forth for me at present time with the lomo 3.7x instead of the bellows I have been looking at

Price wise the 230998684397 is fantastic as something to start this journey, just to clarify would I need 3 sets of these (52mm diameter ) to get to around 120mm (150mm total from plane to objective) or am i just confusing myself again

I really like the idea of practice subject like the seeds mentioned as this will give me amply opportunity to get to grips with the objective and get my lighting sorted. Thanks lots with the heads up on diffusion and I'm definitely liking the diy tissue effect to stop harsh specular highlights. The information on 2nd curtain sync & 2sec exposure is great to help with vibration thanks, I do this with high speed photography & it definitely helps in that area aswell

Once all my kit arrived I will try on both cameras to see if the d610 can preform any better than the d90

I should have the proxxon delivered this week so will look to get an arca swiss type clamp to attach to camera and try to make a diy dial for finer movements like shown in some earlier threads on here

Thanks again for all the help

Cherry

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:47 pm

Photocherry wrote:[the objective adapter] said it was female 36 TPI to 52mm male RMS

The Nikon extension tubes that I have are not 52mm threads, more like 57mm. They don't fit anything else I have, just themselves.

So, not relying on the diameters of the extension tubes, I would go this way:

1. Camera, either one. The tradeoffs are as indicated by ChrisR.

2. Nikon extension tubes, cheap manual ones such as https://www.amazon.com/Fotodiox-Extensi ... B003Y5T464, "Fotodiox Nikon Macro Extension Tube Kit for Nikon Cameras". You'll need two sets to get the full 150mm from sensor to objective. (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fotodiox-Macro ... B003Y5T464, alternate https://www.amazon.co.uk/Polaroid-Nikon ... B009DMJVU6

3. Nikon-to-52mm reverse adapter, for example https://www.amazon.com/Fotodiox-Reverse ... B001G4NBSC , "Fotodiox 52mm Macro Reverse Ring Camera Mount Adapter for using Nikon SLR Camera and lens with 52mm filter thread". This gets you from a male Nikon bayonet to male 52mm threads. (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fotodiox-Filte ... B001G4NBSC, alternate https://www.amazon.co.uk/Adaptor-Revers ... B01IKKGAYQ)

4. 55mm-to-52mm step down ring, for example https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008WYFT6G , "Gino 55mm-52mm 55mm to 52mm Black Step Down Ring Adapter for Camera". You want one where the 52mm threads go clear through the adapter, so you can use it as a 52mm female-female coupler. (https://www.amazon.co.uk/sourcingmap%C2 ... B008WYFT6G)

5. Your existing RMS-to-52mm objective adapter.

5. Lomo objective.

Total cost of the extension tubes, reverse adapter, and coupling ring is about £36, using the cheaper alternates that I have indicated.

If you want to go with bellows, that could substitute in place of the extension tubes. However, with inexpensive bellows only the front mount moves on the rails. When using a microscope objective, this can significantly restrict your ability to use shorter settings, because the bellows rails tend to interfere with specimen holding setups.

--Rik

Photocherry · Post by **Photocherry** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:08 pm

This is brilliant info Rik, and I'm so pleased with the budget prices that you have mentioned on your post, I will definitely order all the different parts that you have suggested, and because I have an amazon voucher for £30 I will be all set in no time

The coupling up definitely confused me in relation to the objective and once I get it all together I can start to learn the process of stacking using the proxxon and magnifications that the lomo allows.

Even just putting the objective to my eye got me excited as to what can be gained from beyond 1:1 and I cannot wait to try this with my camera

Thanks again for all the help provided in this thread really do appreciate your comments

Cherry

Photocherry · Post by **Photocherry** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:16 pm

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Almost forgot - Aswell as the female to female adapter 52mm and the rms 52mm

I also purchased the above to adapters just to clarify Rik with these would I only need to get the 55-52 step down ring or should I still get the ones you mentioned 1st in your post just don't want to duplicate or forget bits that I need to get me started - I am happy to just get all you mentioned and keep the other ones as spares as this is so much cheaper than the bellows

Thanks again

Cherry

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:09 pm

Cherry, I sense some confusion. Certainly I'm confused, because I cannot find 230998684397 at either ebay.com or ebay.co.uk.

Let's try this again, starting from the basics:

1. The camera provides a female Nikon bayonet, facing the objective.

2. The objective provides a male RMS, facing the camera.

3. You need a mechanical coupling between those two things, that has a total length of nominally 103.5 mm between the camera flange and the shoulder of the objective's mounting threads.
(The objective nominally needs 150 mm to the sensor. The camera body provides 46.5 mm from its lens flange to the sensor, so the additional extension is nominally 150- 46.5 = 103.5 mm. Realistically, anything from 95 to 110 mm will work fine, just change the magnification a bit.)

The mechanical coupling can be provided in several different ways, using commercially available parts. Given that you have (or are getting?) an RMS-to-male-52mm adapter for the objective, then three combinations for the other parts could be:

Configuration A. Extension tubes with Nikon mounts on both ends, reverse adapter (Nikon to 52mm male), 52mm coupler (female on both ends)

Configuration B. Reverse adapter (Nikon bayonet to 52mm male), 52mm extension tubes, 52mm coupler (female on both ends)

Configuration C. Male end of Nikon extension tubes that are lucky enough to have 52mm intermediate threads, then more of the intermediate 52mm tubes, ending in 52mm female to fit the objective adapter.

I do not recommend Configuration C only because I don't know where to find tubes that are guaranteed to work.

Configuration B is a variable case that happens to look quite good today. I generally do not recommend anything that requires 52mm extension tubes, because historically those have often difficult or impossible to find. However, I see that as of this writing, amazon.co.uk has 52mm tubes in lengths of 7, 14, 21, and 28 mm, by Photo Plus. (Search for "52mm extension tubes", find for example https://www.amazon.co.uk/Photo-Plus-52m ... B009VPPZYQ.) Figuring the reverse adapter adds 1 mm, the coupler adds 6 mm, and the objective adapter adds 5 mm, you could come very close to nominal by adding four tubes: 28, 28, 28, and 7 mm. Those tubes are selling for £5.99 each, so this would fit nicely in your budget. This would also provide a very rigid connection, because all the joints would be screw threads except for the bayonet into camera (which is usually quite firm).

Configuration A is the one that I recommended in previous post. It is easily purchased any day of the year. The major drawback is that due to having one or two more bayonet couplings (depending on how you assemble it), it is likely to be less rigid than configuration B.

None of these configurations uses a "52mm to 52mm Male to Male lens Reverse Macro Coupler Adapter" like shown in your second image above.

You mentioned in your first post that your kit includes a "52mm to 52mm female to female adapter". That might serve in place of the "55mm-to-52mm step down ring" with 52mm threads that go clear through, that I have talked about. But since I don't know for sure that what you're describing is the same as what I'm imagining, I'm a little nervous about that.

I hope this helps!

--Rik

ChrisR · Post by **ChrisR** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:05 am

The ebay number 230998684397 works in the UK
bondscamera
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Macro-Extensi ... xyu4dRuXIm

I did get a reply - their Nikon version is larger diameter., about 57mm, he says.

You could pester them for confirmation of the 52mm in the middle - , they at least replied so should be able to help.

You can plug the m4/3rds bayonets together in the middle of the length you want.

Their total length is something like 65mm I think.

Not sure why you want 55mm??

You'll need to fix the camera to the Proxxon - I may have missed your intentions - .
You could use something like ebay 321931486408 which is a 70mm "arca" plate and clamp. £9.95 or so the pair.
Search on mixtures of arca, plate, clamp.
I don't know the Proxxon so I' don't know what it provides in the way of holes. Search Rik's posts, he will have shown pictures.
You COULD use a large piece of double-sided white sticky tape - very thin foam - £1 shop!. That goes on the Clamp, plate screws to tripod ole in the camera. Foam iis potentially bouncy, but if you have a large area it's not bad until you find metal parts.

Most of the copy Nikon bayonets I have aren't ideal. they can be a bit loose - or tight so the pin doesn't disengage easily (alarming...).
If they're loose, small (1-2cm) strips of adhesive paper label at 3 points of the clock, just stuck on to flat parts of the interface, will work.

Photocherry · Post by **Photocherry** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:39 am

Cherry, I sense some confusion. Certainly I'm confused, because I cannot find 230998684397 at either ebay.com or ebay.co.uk

Hi Rik, yes I definitely started to get confused (completely stuck) with the coupling aspect

when I checked that item they only had a limited stock so must have sold out.

thanks so much for going back to basics I think the reason for being so confused is because I've never seen extension tubes or working bellows before, I've only ever read about them or watched videos. The descriptions when they sell makes everything sound like they would fit easily however i realise know that's not the case with the kind help of the posts on this thread

Figuring the reverse adapter adds 1 mm, the coupler adds 6 mm, and the objective adapter adds 5 mm, you could come very close to nominal by adding four tubes: 28, 28, 28, and 7 mm. Those tubes are selling for £5.99 each, so this would fit nicely in your budget. This would also provide a very rigid connection, because all the joints would be screw threads except for the bayonet into camera (which is usually quite firm)

This looks the best way forward if Chris's extension tubes have sold out, I will check again beforehand - either way I will have the equipment and a guide within this thread to work out to put this all together correctly (this way I can use my amazon vouchers to purchase aswell)

You mentioned in your first post that your kit includes a "52mm to 52mm female to female adapter". That might serve in place of the "55mm-to-52mm step down ring" with 52mm threads that go clear through, that I have talked about. But since I don't know for sure that what you're describing is the same as what I'm imagining, I'm a little nervous about that.

I'm nervous about that on now aswell as from my previous purchases I got completely confused with what I needed so I doubt it will be correct

https://m.ebay.com/itm/311466079498?_mwBanner=1

This was the one I got but I'm not sure it's correct

Thanks again with the detailed explanation

Photocherry · Post by **Photocherry** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:05 am

Thanks lots Chris,

Just had a check now and they have 6 left in stock, I have sent a message as recommended, I was only adding the length of what was shown on the tubes together (28,14,7mm) so was only thinking that the extension tubes added up to 49mm in total (newbie errors again lol)

The 55mm was mentioned by rik in his recommendations earlier in the thread

4. 55mm-to-52mm step down ring, for example https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008WYFT6G , "Gino 55mm-52mm 55mm to 52mm Black Step Down Ring Adapter for Camera". You want one where the 52mm threads go clear through the adapter, so you can use it as a 52mm female-female coupler. (https://www.amazon.co.uk/sourcingmap%C2 ... B008WYFT6G)

Thanks for the arca swiss information, it's great I can use something like that as I had seen so many that were really expensive so wasn't too sure - my proxxon arrived this morning am excited to get it all together

Most of the copy Nikon bayonets I have aren't ideal. they can be a bit loose - or tight so the pin doesn't disengage easily (alarming...). If they're loose, small (1-2cm) strips of adhesive paper label at 3 points of the clock, just stuck on to flat parts of the interface, will work.

That's great advice for the bayonet, thank you, I have read in the reviews that they can be loose but not seen any recommendations of what to do about it, this will be great

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:47 pm

Photocherry wrote:https://m.ebay.com/itm/311466079498?_mwBanner=1

Perfect. That's another one of those adapters that is often hard to find. Male-male reversing rings are always available from lots of sources. Female-female are a different story. The step-down ring with through threads is functionally equivalent, less attractive, and available all the time.

The ebay number 230998684397 works in the UK
bondscamera
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Macro-Extensi ... xyu4dRuXIm

That link works fine. So does search for 230998684397, today but not yesterday. Puzzlements abound.

--Rik

Photocherry · Post by **Photocherry** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:47 pm

Thanks lots Rik, I first made the mistake of getting the male to male and was gutted when my rms adapter arrived and I couldn't use them together so had to search for a female to female, that only showed up via a Google search on eBay which was strange

I have sent a message to the seller that Chris kindly recommend and I have also ordered configuration b that Rik suggested with the 3 x 28mm tubes & 1 x 7mm in the 52mm diameter as I was able to use my amazon voucher & they should arrive later this week

Thanks again both of you for taking the time & slowly explaining the process & for all the help with links to the bits of equipment - totally appreciate

I received my proxxon table today and have ordered a arca swiss type clamp & plate to fix the camera on the top and can see there are holes in the bottom so the proxxon can be fixed to something -

After looking at this fab post and all the creative & elaborate ways to set up

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... breadboard

I was hoping as a newbie to mount to a piece of thick wood to start with (same to with my subject stage) , if this is possible would I drill holes in the wooden base and thread a bolt through the underside and fasten a small nut to the upper proxxon side? (if that makes sense) I've also seen the sorbothane feet that people have mentioned for the underside of the base - would that be something I should look to get as I will be placing the Base on a large wooden sideboard in the upstairs part of my house and I don't have any concrete floors unfortunately

Thanks for any help with the last part of my set up

I Forgot to add I searched on here for pictures of seeds like suggested and there is so much variety to choose from, I definitely will be going down that route for my 1st test subjects thanks again for the heads up on that