Nikon 50x slwd - butterfily wing
Moderators: rjlittlefield, ChrisR, Chris S., Pau
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Nikon 50x slwd - butterfily wing
Hi
I did a stack of a butterfily wing and whilst I am waiting for the proper black adhesive paper to arrive ( flocking), I used some black electrical tape to cover the rear of the objective. I am quite happy with the result as now I do not have a lot of haze but the image is not sharp and seems to have chromatic Aberration (CA). Any suggestions , could it be that the black electrical tape is causing a greater degree of CA. The 2 blues wings are from the Nikon 50x and the yellow one is from a Mitutoyo 20x as comparison (used same settings below).
My setup was canon 5dmkiii, 70-200, @ 200mm infinity, f2.8, mirror lockup. 5 second wait time, but my UM step was 2. Perhaps at 50x it should be 1um. I just acquired a new rail that can do .65um which I have not tried. My stackshot is sitting on vibration pads on a large & thick metal block, also on vibration pads. Subject was placed in a 150mm diameter tunnel diffuser, I used 2 ikea led lights and 1 flash from above,
Any ideas or suggestions to the cause of the CA's and is the clarity due to the 2um step? Please let me know if there are any issues that I am not aware of?
cheers
Denis
I did a stack of a butterfily wing and whilst I am waiting for the proper black adhesive paper to arrive ( flocking), I used some black electrical tape to cover the rear of the objective. I am quite happy with the result as now I do not have a lot of haze but the image is not sharp and seems to have chromatic Aberration (CA). Any suggestions , could it be that the black electrical tape is causing a greater degree of CA. The 2 blues wings are from the Nikon 50x and the yellow one is from a Mitutoyo 20x as comparison (used same settings below).
My setup was canon 5dmkiii, 70-200, @ 200mm infinity, f2.8, mirror lockup. 5 second wait time, but my UM step was 2. Perhaps at 50x it should be 1um. I just acquired a new rail that can do .65um which I have not tried. My stackshot is sitting on vibration pads on a large & thick metal block, also on vibration pads. Subject was placed in a 150mm diameter tunnel diffuser, I used 2 ikea led lights and 1 flash from above,
Any ideas or suggestions to the cause of the CA's and is the clarity due to the 2um step? Please let me know if there are any issues that I am not aware of?
cheers
Denis
Denis,
Unfortunately, the black tape is almost certainly not the cause of the CA—it’s probably just a characteristic of the Nikon 50x SLWD objective. I don’t have any personal experience with this objective, but unless it’s described as an “Apo” or “Apochromat,” this sort of CA is exactly what one generally sees.
Is the Nikon 50x SLWD the NA 0.40 version that I see in a quick Web search? If so, it should have no more—and theoretically a bit less—resolution than your Mitutoyo 20x/0.42, since NA determines resolution in a well-made objective. But your 50x is of course enlarging that resolution by 250 percent. That might account for much or all of the perceived lack of sharpness.
Also, are you using electronic first shutter curtain? (Though not being a Canon user, I don’t recall whether or not your camera is in the group with “known good” EFSC—not all are.)
What was your exposure duration? Being a Nikon user, I don’t have EFSC at all, so need to use exposure times on the order of eight seconds to eliminate the effect of shutter vibration.
Two microns is a very appropriate increment for NA 0.40 or NA 0.42 lenses—regardless of the magnification. I use 1.8 microns at 0.42—this determined by testing smaller and larger increments—and I’m fairly picky.
Cheers,
--Chris
Unfortunately, the black tape is almost certainly not the cause of the CA—it’s probably just a characteristic of the Nikon 50x SLWD objective. I don’t have any personal experience with this objective, but unless it’s described as an “Apo” or “Apochromat,” this sort of CA is exactly what one generally sees.
Is the Nikon 50x SLWD the NA 0.40 version that I see in a quick Web search? If so, it should have no more—and theoretically a bit less—resolution than your Mitutoyo 20x/0.42, since NA determines resolution in a well-made objective. But your 50x is of course enlarging that resolution by 250 percent. That might account for much or all of the perceived lack of sharpness.
Also, are you using electronic first shutter curtain? (Though not being a Canon user, I don’t recall whether or not your camera is in the group with “known good” EFSC—not all are.)
What was your exposure duration? Being a Nikon user, I don’t have EFSC at all, so need to use exposure times on the order of eight seconds to eliminate the effect of shutter vibration.
Two microns is a very appropriate increment for NA 0.40 or NA 0.42 lenses—regardless of the magnification. I use 1.8 microns at 0.42—this determined by testing smaller and larger increments—and I’m fairly picky.
Cheers,
--Chris
Somehow my eye stopped at "2 ikea led lights" without registering "and 1 flash from above." Perhaps it was cognitive dissonance, as the thought of mixing available light and flash in a macro studio triggers in me an alarm reflex as automatic as seeing a child run with scissors. If both are contributing to exposure--one gets the downsides of both methods and the upsides of neither.ChrisR wrote:I assume the LED lights aren't contributing to the image? (They are a different colour.)2 ikea led lights and 1 flash from above
That's the right experiment. When interpreting the results, though, we should bear in mind that flash itself can induce motion in wing scales--even if the flash is set at low power. I've long ago abandoned the practice of shooting wing scales with flash of any kind. This said, ChrisR and I have both seen what flash-induced movement looks like; for my part, I have a gut feeling--nothing more--that this is not what we're seeing here.ChrisR wrote:At 50x I wouldn't stand a chance of using continuous light, because of vibration. Can you try with just the flash, at low power?
--Chris S.
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Thanks Chris R and Chris S , I nearly missed that :-)
I am not sure what you mean by "Also, are you using electronic first shutter curtain?" I will check the net but do you mean "mirror lockup"?
The settings were f2.8, iso 200, 1/100, @f2.8, 200mm infinity.
Yes the small ikea lights are warmish on the yellowish side. They are placed on the side of the tunnel diffuser and the flash is directly above the tunnel where the subject is. I have not yet built the 'cone' you suggested for the objective but will do so this week.
thank you
Denis
I am not sure what you mean by "Also, are you using electronic first shutter curtain?" I will check the net but do you mean "mirror lockup"?
The settings were f2.8, iso 200, 1/100, @f2.8, 200mm infinity.
Yes the small ikea lights are warmish on the yellowish side. They are placed on the side of the tunnel diffuser and the flash is directly above the tunnel where the subject is. I have not yet built the 'cone' you suggested for the objective but will do so this week.
thank you
Denis
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Denis,
About Electronic First Shutter Curtain (EFSC): There are two important sources of vibration involved in actuating a DSLR’s mirror and shutter. The larger source is mirror slap, the effect of which you’ve eliminated by shooting in mirror-up mode and then waiting for mirror slap to dissipate. The smaller—but still vital—vibration source is shutter slap (called “shutter shock” by some). This can be a big problem, a huge softener of images. Canon provides an answer to this—which apparently works well in some Canon bodies, but poorly in others—in the form of EFSC. The idea is that in EFSC mode, the shutter goes up, a bit of time passes, during which shutter-induced-vibration dissipates—and only after this does the sensor begin electronically recording the image.
In a seminal post a few years ago, Charlie Krebs convincingly demonstrated that EFSC made a big difference in image sharpness under certain conditions. Charlie’s findings have been widely replicated and expanded on by other photographers. Unfortunately, Canon has not implemented EFSC will full efficacy in all its camera bodies. Nikon is far worse, implementing EFCS (same concept, but with idiotically different abbreviation) much later, more poorly, and only in a few premium bodies. Anyway, if your camera body supports EFSC, you should try using it.
And yes, 1/100 second is a slow enough exposure that EFCS might make things sharper. It is not a fast enough exposure to freeze out shutter-induced vibration.
If one considers carefully the above observations—and has no disagreement with them—then there is no way to sharply image certain subjects, such as butterfly scales, with flash. Once I figured this out, I gave up on flash for most subjects, and have since worked almost entirely with continuous light.
Cheers,
--Chris S.
About Electronic First Shutter Curtain (EFSC): There are two important sources of vibration involved in actuating a DSLR’s mirror and shutter. The larger source is mirror slap, the effect of which you’ve eliminated by shooting in mirror-up mode and then waiting for mirror slap to dissipate. The smaller—but still vital—vibration source is shutter slap (called “shutter shock” by some). This can be a big problem, a huge softener of images. Canon provides an answer to this—which apparently works well in some Canon bodies, but poorly in others—in the form of EFSC. The idea is that in EFSC mode, the shutter goes up, a bit of time passes, during which shutter-induced-vibration dissipates—and only after this does the sensor begin electronically recording the image.
In a seminal post a few years ago, Charlie Krebs convincingly demonstrated that EFSC made a big difference in image sharpness under certain conditions. Charlie’s findings have been widely replicated and expanded on by other photographers. Unfortunately, Canon has not implemented EFSC will full efficacy in all its camera bodies. Nikon is far worse, implementing EFCS (same concept, but with idiotically different abbreviation) much later, more poorly, and only in a few premium bodies. Anyway, if your camera body supports EFSC, you should try using it.
And yes, 1/100 second is a slow enough exposure that EFCS might make things sharper. It is not a fast enough exposure to freeze out shutter-induced vibration.
I strongly suggest that you restrict your shooting lights to either LED or flash, not both. It’s fine to use LED as a focusing light and flash as a shooting light, so long as one—only one—of these light sources contributes to actual exposure. Continuous lights such as LEDs have both positives (WYSIWYG, lack of flash-induced movement), and negatives (fuzziness if vibration is present). Flash also has both positives (possible elimination of vibration), and negatives (not WYSISYG, can induce subject vibration). In the field, it’s sometimes useful to combine sunlight (continuous) with flash (very brief)—but this is an expert skill, and something to be avoided at all costs in the macro studio.Clintonwake wrote:Yes the small ikea lights are warmish on the yellowish side. They are placed on the side of the tunnel diffuser and the flash is directly above the tunnel where the subject is.
Sorry to differ from your quite-sensible viewpoint, but flash-induced vibration is an interest of mine, so I’ve done fair amount of experimentation on the subject. Per my (unpublished) data, the main issue is not mechanical shock emanating from the flash unit. Rather, it is the rapid, visible-spectrum illumination of the subject, which creates a nearly-instantaneous infrared fluorescence by the subject, which almost instantly heats adjacent air, which “kicks” the subject violently and randomly.Clintonwake wrote:The flash is hanging from above so hopefully should not cause vibration and also the speed of 1/100 I thought would help with minute vibrations, perhaps not.
If one considers carefully the above observations—and has no disagreement with them—then there is no way to sharply image certain subjects, such as butterfly scales, with flash. Once I figured this out, I gave up on flash for most subjects, and have since worked almost entirely with continuous light.
Cheers,
--Chris S.
Hi
The flash itself can induce movements in scales. For some scales I have problems with this when using a studio flash. So far I have not noticed a drop in picture quality when I use a 580 ex speedligth at 1 / 10 000 or faster. Recently I postens a test with an apo ronar 360 mm, in that post there is one picture with continous light and one with a speedligth. I can not see any difference in detail between those pictures. I do not know if the reason for this is the low effect of the flash and/or the speed.
I have not been able to use flash and EFSC.
[Edit Chris S posted a much more informative post while I was writing my post.]
Regards Jörgen
The flash itself can induce movements in scales. For some scales I have problems with this when using a studio flash. So far I have not noticed a drop in picture quality when I use a 580 ex speedligth at 1 / 10 000 or faster. Recently I postens a test with an apo ronar 360 mm, in that post there is one picture with continous light and one with a speedligth. I can not see any difference in detail between those pictures. I do not know if the reason for this is the low effect of the flash and/or the speed.
I have not been able to use flash and EFSC.
[Edit Chris S posted a much more informative post while I was writing my post.]
Regards Jörgen
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Thanks Chris S , really appreciate the assistance.
I will test with just leds only and then with flash only to compare the results.
Wow, this is like a science fiction movie where just light from the flash even though its not sitting on the table of the subject has an impact. I think I might just get more and & stronger Leds :-)
"Sorry to differ from your quite-sensible viewpoint, but flash-induced vibration is an interest of mine, so I’ve done fair amount of experimentation on the subject. Per my (unpublished) data, the main issue is not mechanical shock emanating from the flash unit. Rather, it is the rapid, visible-spectrum illumination of the subject, which creates a nearly-instantaneous infrared fluorescence by the subject, which almost instantly heats adjacent air, which “kicks” the subject violently and randomly. "
thanks once again,
Denis
I will test with just leds only and then with flash only to compare the results.
Wow, this is like a science fiction movie where just light from the flash even though its not sitting on the table of the subject has an impact. I think I might just get more and & stronger Leds :-)
"Sorry to differ from your quite-sensible viewpoint, but flash-induced vibration is an interest of mine, so I’ve done fair amount of experimentation on the subject. Per my (unpublished) data, the main issue is not mechanical shock emanating from the flash unit. Rather, it is the rapid, visible-spectrum illumination of the subject, which creates a nearly-instantaneous infrared fluorescence by the subject, which almost instantly heats adjacent air, which “kicks” the subject violently and randomly. "
thanks once again,
Denis
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I can see merits in above statement and believe continuous light might be good idea.If one considers carefully the above observations—and has no disagreement with them—then there is no way to sharply image certain subjects, such as butterfly scales, with flash. Once I figured this out, I gave up on flash for most subjects, and have since worked almost entirely with continuous light.
Flash light is intense and can cause thermal reactions at that intensity and in turn cause vibrations, though not a problem in low magnification, it can be disturbing factor for higher magnification work.
However, what if a low intensity LED flash is used? With same amount of exposure, LED flash duration will be longer, would it cause the same kind of thermal reaction that will disturb surroundings? The intensity of a LED flash will be much higher than a continuous light, maybe one order of magnitude, but certainly less intense than flash -- several orders of magnitude less than xeon flash.
Or maybe even with a halogen light in flash mode -- increased intensity at time of shutter open, like you (Chris S.) mentioned in another thread.
Just a thought, when I have time to finish up my panel LED flash light (30Ws pulsed on for less than 10ms), I will do some experiments on my own.
The D800 doesn't (D810 does) but 5DMKIII does it for sure: just set Silent Mode 1 in the camera menu and activate LV before taking the pictures. Sadly it doesn't support flash but it's excellent for continuous illumination.Clintonwake wrote: I do not think my Canon 5dmkiii & Nikon D800 support EFSC
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