new member and zeiss questions.

[solartje]

Hi all,

First of all, thanks for letting me join this forum.
I've been lurking here alot but as i didn't had a microscope i never registered. This forum is packed with good information, good help and some greath pictures.


short bio: im 37, interested in darkfield research and live blood analyse.
Im from belgium but my name also ends with ramos :-) after reading i descided not to go with a new amscope and go for the 2hand market. took me some time to figure out value of items, what brands, what i need, future upgrades etc. i think ive spend the last 2 months 4h/day easy on learning about all i needed to know and today i rescieved my microscope.

A used Zeiss standard 14-16. (or combo... of standard pieces).
Everything is working, it came with 8 objectives. it has 3 plans, one planapo (yeah good news as i payed 300$ for everything) and 4 objectives from leitz that i'm probably going to sell as they are for 170mm and buy the DF items i need.
stage and buttons are working fine , ilumination is fine, comes with KPL eyepieces (so it looks like a standard 16 but my head has only place for 4 objectives, )

Anyway, i started to try centering everything and setting up koler ilumination and some pieces give (at low light intensity (high NA objectives + closes field iris) ALOT of debris.

The objectives look fine, as i think 99° of the things i see, turn when i turn the eyepieces, and the things that dont turn, stay when i swap objectives. So i think my objectives are fine, but the eyepieces and condensor are To old to be usable.

I took 2 pictures, can you tell me if the eyepiece is still usable and if the spots on the condenser are normal/usable
Ive tried the breath on it and use lens paper, but it didnt do anything to the spots. it doenst look like fungus either... (i hope) more like somebody hit it several times

pic: condenser with the flip out of the way

pic from inside of the eyepieces.,pritty bad




Then some other questions, as i'm going to use it mainly for darkfield at 40x and 100x oil the first months (i know not the easyest) and later on for everything else

- is the 1.4 dedicated ultracondenser from zeiss (it has no correction right? or is a cardoid corrected?) beter then the phase turret with apo achro 1.4 lens. i supose the ultracondenser is a cardoid, but isn't the apo achro the best corrected lens for a condenser possible ? i ask this as a 2hand ultracondenser costs as much as the phase turret, but the turret gives me more options, i can make my own DF stops, use PH later on, etc. So is the quality difference of the ultra worth buying it IF i descide to go for 100X darkfield .

PS i'll try the 40X plan 0,65 i have in darkfield with the 0,9 dry condenser this microscope came with, but if i dont get enough details for what i need, ill have to go 100x and oil or good 63/0,95.


Another question: my condenser holder is the one that doesnt center the condenser with "sticks" but with a small screws that shows another screw when i remove the top screw. i tried removing the condenser to clean it, but when i pull the springloaded thingy (sorry my englisch is bad) I can't get it out. do i really need to unscrew both centering screws to get it out? (that will be a pain in the ##### to recenter). also under my condenser i have 2 other centering screws for one of the filter holders. It looks like i can center my light with either one of them. I guess the screws at the height of the condenser are more "holding screws" and the center sticks under the condenser are used to center the condenser. is this correct?


I dont have slides yet, so i can't show you how my images look. first i need to setup everything right. I'm following some items on ebay (some neofluars, some apo's, a ultracondenser and a turret).

what combo would you suggest me in between these for live blood analyses that has the best quality/value. (not the most expensive)

plan 100X with iris
Neofluar 100/1.3 (and make a funnel stop with paper)
neofluar 40/0,75
or look for a planapo 63/0,9 ($$$)

ultraDF (this is the one right? it has no nr to verify) http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/25166561873 ... 1423.l2649
the phase turret (BF, DF, PH2,PH3)

The ultra+plan100iris is the best in quality, but cost is as much as a apo achor turret and a 100x neofluar PH3 and the last one gives me alot more versatility and better BF too. i just have no idea how they compare in DF quality.


Thanks for the help in advance and looking forward to learn alot and enjoy my microscope. Sorry for my bad englisch. i hope its understandable

[Pau]

solartje, welcome aboard!

the ultracondenser Z linked is the one you want for this application, it need to be used oiled to the slide and will work well for objectives 25X 0.5 to any with NA up to 1.0
105€ is a good price for it, my advice: buy it now
About your condenser holder, I don't understand well the problem, could you post pictures?
- more responses to follow when I was at home

[solartje]

Hi pau,

Was hoping you would react you're the zeiss man !

I guess by saying to buy the udf condenser now, you also say that the difference of a dedicated dfc is worth the lack of usefullness vs a turret. Ill buy it as soon as you have found time to response more. just want to be sure 100%. its alot of money

here is a picture of my condenser holder. there arent 3 "sticks". just one in front that i can pull , but the 2 other screws are not controlled by "sticks" that i can turn to center it, but just screws. you can see them in the back. If i remove the screw, there is another screw beneet it that hold (and centers?) the condenser. The 2 filter holders, the lowest one has a lens in it and 2 centering screws. when i turn them , it seems to center the condenser light. maybe this model is a different centering technique.

(by just pulling the "stick" from the condenser holder i can't remove the condenser. maybe because its never been removed in 30y or maybe i need to remove the 2 screws in the back too)

[Eddie]

I've never seen set screws to adjust the condenser. Usually there are two knurled handled screws to adjust the condenser.

Have you tried to 'pull' the condenser against the front pin and tilt the back up and out? Seems it should work but if there isn't that much play in the front pin to do that, you will need to loosen the two rear screws

[solartje]

yup, i finally got it out. Even with the 2 screws unscrewed, it was hard. i think it was never removed in over a long time. Some raw power trying not the smash the thing, and it finally got out. (i was afraid the raw power method was not normal) gonna clean it a bit and re-install it.

I got a better look of the top lens of the condenser and it looks like the spots are on the inside, but as this is a 2 lens condenser i have no idea how something would go inside.. maybe it is to difuse it?

I checked my image again and the spots that didnt turn when i turn the eyepieces are still there even with the condenser removed, so i guess its on the inside of the head lenses. Should i try to clean them myself or just take it to a shop and have it cleaned?

ill try to take 2 pictures of what i see at low light intensity and at high light intensity. at high intensity all the spots and scratches disappear, so maybe i'm just over stressing? (i dont have a trinocular or a dslr so quality is lol)







Ow, and i bought the ultra darkfield condenser. i made an offer of 80€ and he accepted. now i need to choose the right objective. plan iris or a planapo/planneofluar with a selfmade funnel stop.... so many options.

i feel like a boy in a candy shop. I can't see anything yet on the microscope, but i'm alreayd playing with it all day long. loving it.

[Eddie]

Check your binocular head. Take the eye pieces out and remove the head from the scope. inspect the bottom lens and also the lens in each tube by tilting either end towards a light source. If there is external dust, you try cleaning by first blowing air on the surface. If that doesn't clean it, try a soft bush as used on camera lenses. If there is grim which the air or brush does not clean, use a q-tip or lens cleaning paper dipped in distilled water. Last resort would be a small bit of lens cleaning solution. Try to swipe lightly. If the dirt is internal, then you might want to take it to someone who specializes in cleaning optics.

The lens on your condenser is just plain glass to keep the internal lens clean. There is three screws that hold the lens down. Unscrew the screws and clean the top lens as above. While it is open blow out the dirt from inside with air and clean if needed. Dirt can get in from the iris mechanism.

[Pau]

...(so it looks like a standard 16 but my head has only place for 4 objectives, )

So it's a Std 14 with some improved parts

Another question: my condenser holder is the one that doesnt center the condenser with "sticks" but with a small screws that shows another screw when i remove the top screw. i tried removing the condenser to clean it, but when i pull the springloaded thingy (sorry my englisch is bad) I can't get it out. do i really need to unscrew both centering screws to get it out? (that will be a pain in the ##### to recenter). also under my condenser i have 2 other centering screws for one of the filter holders. It looks like i can center my light with either one of them. I guess the screws at the height of the condenser are more "holding screws" and the center sticks under the condenser are used to center the condenser. is this correct?

I've never seen that kind of condenser holder. Maybe it came from a model with opal glass precentered condenser lately upgraded of from a school to prevent people to decenter the scope. Likely you could replace the screws with knurled screws to gain centerring ease. maybe you could get them from a condenser holder sold for parts or repair at low price, the screw looks the same.

In normal Z condenser holders you need to push the condenser itself against the spring loaded pin and then turn upside the opposite part to free the dovetail (do it after lowering the condenser to avoid damaging it). I wrote it before seing Eddie's post and that you've finally be able to dismount it. Some brute force is needed, but not much. You can dismount or just lube the spring bundled pin, often in old microscope the grease his hardened and stuck, this also happens with the dovetail mount system and can also can happen with the focusing mechanics.

The centerring screws at the "filter holder" are to center the auxiliary lens often bundled with Standards to ger more even illumination at low magnification, it doesn't replace the condenser centerring function, but could help a bit (actually the goal is to do not lose centering when you switch in and out that lens). But I think that the filter holders are misplaced: the regulable auxiliary lens if present must be at the uppermost position, just under the condenser holder, its easy to change unescrewing the bolt that acts as axis of both holders.

- Another usual source of dirt is the glass that covers the field diaphragm at the microscope base, it can be cleaned removing the 3 very small screws that hold it in place.

- The flat glass over the condenser diaphragm also looks dirty. you can clean it and also dismount it, it has 3 small screws.

- But for me the first task to do would be to make or get prepared slides and actually check the microscope as intended, just center what is decentered or things can easily get more decentered

- Leitz objectives, even if marked for 170mm tube are very good and pretty compatible with Zeiss optics (the actual tube difference is only 2mm, doesn't matter for low power and just a bit for high power). The ocular compensation is not exactly the same but they combine pretty well. I mainly use Leitz 160mm objectives with Leitz eyepieces, but I also combine some Leitz for 170 and Zeiss with no problems. What kind of Leitz objectives did you get?

[solartje]

thanks alot.

the condenser glass is cleaned. all the spots are gone.
I think you are right about the screws over screws thing probably being from a school to prevent kids from switching. anyway, i had to remove them as the pin and the whole condenser was "kinda" glued. After cleaning and pushing the pin in an outwards a couple of time , it is working like it should and i can now remove and place it without touching the screws.

Everything is decentered though. The condenser, the flip out top, the condenserholder, etc. It's going to be a pain in the ##### to center it, but i actually enjoy doing it. it's removes my thoughts from other things and helps me relax.

going to clean the head now and continu centering everything. Hope i'm done with that tonight.

unfortunatly i dont have any slide i can use to test. i'll make a blood smear when my slides arived and do post the quality before opting to replace the eyepices.

The leitz objectives it came in are the
1/12 Oel A= 1,30 100:1
1h 3,5:1
6L A=0,65 45:1
3 A=0,25 10:1

I know all the zeiss terminology but not the leitz. guess they are basic achromatic lenses.

[Pau]

The leitz objectives it came in are the
1/12 Oel A= 1,30 100:1
1h 3,5:1
6L A=0,65 45:1
3 A=0,25 10:1

I know all the zeiss terminology but not the leitz. guess they are basic achromatic lenses.

Yes, they are very old achromats, maybe even not useable with the standard if they are designed for 37mm parfocal distance, in that case the zeiss can't focus so close, it's designed to DIN 45mm parfocal distance, in any case if you have not the equivalent magnification Zeiss ones I would wait a bit and try them, you can't get much money from them.

[solartje]

I cleaned everything. there was alot of dust everywhere. It's not perfect, but it's ok. the eyepieces are the only pieces that are really beat up, all the rest is ok. I aligned everything. impossible to align the swing out lens. the screws that hold the lens are so small even my smallest screwdriver (3cm small) is way to big for it. i can adjust the angle of the swing out so i adjusted that as good as possible. i'll be replacing it with the new condenser anyway, so no worries.

I also replaced the filter holder's places like sugested. i think they put the lens the highest because maye the previous owner would use it to put stop on it to create df and have it as close as possible to the condenser?

All i can do now is wait till my slides arrive. i already made the error of not buying high precisionslides, but i hope with the Ultra and the 100x oil this wont be that noticible.

i checked the leitz 100x and isn't focusable and he us shorter, so guess useless. weird that the seller added them to the auction.

now anyone has a plan apo 100x with an iris for less then price of my first born child?


first 2 pics ever with the 30$ setup , picture taken by just holding the cheapo camera in front of the lenses with my hands. all the cracks and bits from the eyepieces are hardly visible once you use a real thing in between all the lenses.

50c euro star with oblique ilimination from my cellphone

and a 10€ note that let some light from the scope trough


The pictures are terrible, it looks amazing in real life. the plan apo images are insane. i'm loving it ! i think i'm hooked for life.


one question remains:
plan 100X with iris
Neofluar 100/1.3 (and make a funnel stop with paper)
or neofluar 40/0,75 63/90
to combine with the ultra DF ?

[solartje]

i checked some prices and these are the prices i found.
plan 100 no iris 70€ + 10€ shipping
plan 100 with iris 90€ + 65€ (import/shipping)
neofluar 100 no iris 50€ + 10€ shipping
planapo 100 no iris +- 200€
planapo 100 with iris 300€ + 120€ (import/shipping)

I only have 2 days left to bid on a the plan 100x (wich was the choice i had in mind, but i have no experience), so any help on choosing the best price/quality equilibrium would be nice. i'd like to stay under the 100$ but if the quality difference is huge then i'm willing to break the piggy bank.

[Pau]

For dark field you want the iris version, to make a stop to reduce the NA with enough precision could be difficult.

In any case you can't get dark field with NA higher than 1.0 (1.1 theorically).
Other good (but not cheap) alternatives are:
Z. Planapo 40 1.00 oil
Z. Planapo 40 0.95 with correction collar
Leitz NPL Fluotar 50/1.00 160/0.17 oel. It's an excellent plan fluorite lens, one of my favorites, but I haven't the former two.
Z. Plan Neofluar 60/0.90

Neofluars are excellent (not at planapo level) but not full flatfield corrected

[solartje]

pau, don't the NPL fluotar have a to short parfocal length? i can't bring the zeiss standard stage up high enough.

i could go 40 or 60x road, but then i need new 16x eyepieces. mine are 8x and i'd like to have a total of 800x or 1000x . on the other hand, i won't have to oil them wich is a big plus.

pfff so many choices


well thanks everyone for the help. I hope my next post will be of a good quality darkfield picture

[Pau]

No, the Leitz NPL Fluotar 50/1.00 160/0.17 oel is a DIN objective, 45mm parfocal and corrected for 160mm TL and is to be used with oil like all objectives with NA higher than 0.95. I use it with my Zeiss Standard.

Only the older Leitz objectives (and also the ones from many other makers) are to be used with shorter parfocal distance microscopes. Most Leitz objectives corrected for 170 TL and all the ones corrected for 160 TL are 45mm parfocal.
Even the ones corrected for 37mm parfocal distance can be used on DIN microscopes with an optics bundled extender named Leitz Plezy, but IMO this is only worth if you have very good objectives like apos, not so interesting for old achromats.

Maybe the planapo 100 with iris could be the best option for you, but for no oil work only the second and last ones in my list can work

About eyepieces, they don't provide more resolution but just more magnification. For me the best ones for general purpose are 10X high eyepoint (eyeglasses symbol), other people like more magnification, but I would stay with 12.5X better than 16X because of wider field of view, this is a taste and eyesight matter.

What's your goal, visual work or photomicrography?

[solartje]

ok now i understand the lengths..

my goal is checking my blood in live blood smears for educational purposes. me and my wife have positive serology for several bacteria. i've been studying them for 2 years now and now i want to see them with my own eyes (even if it means small odds without dna staining or cultivation). hence the darkfield and the 400X and 1000x need.

i'm gonna start with darkfield live view and safe staining techniques in brightfields.

But honestly... now i found this forum and i look at all the pictures ,maybe photomicrography could become a new hobby. its fascinating. i'm constantly looking for things to put under my microscope and amazed at the new worlds i'm seeing :-) diatoms especially are amazing and i love the compositions of them. Does this mean i'm getting hooked?

ps with the NA of 1.00 i could get max of 1000x without losing resolution right? or is that only in theory. thats why i was thinking of the combo 60/0.90 and X16 instead of the 100/oil/iris and the X8. both will give almost same resolution and almost 1000X total mag. but it would save me the trouble of having to oil the objectives.


PS2, my next problem will be the light. it has the standard 6v 15w halogen lamp and i guess it wont be strong enough for 100x darkfield?
i'm reading alot about that, and not sure whats the best option. diy led replacement , find a used 100W 12V old zeiss parts but that will be costly, or find a 30W 6V but guess thats not enough either. (http://zeiss-campus.magnet.fsu.edu/arti ... logen.html ) guess i need a led with 4k lumens wich is ALOT. ) pau did you use led lightning and if not is the 15w lamp really a big problem for darkfield or only like 10% less or something in contrast?)