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Setup of Ploum
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dolmadis



Joined: 07 Dec 2011
Posts: 671
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Frederic

I need some help in understanding how I must build a direct mirror of your system because I am not either good at physics or mathematics.

Nevertheless I am interested in trying your system myself exactly as you use it yourself.

But I will need more information please in the practical sense.

I have just visited this link you posted above.

ploum wrote:
http://www.geoforum.fr/topic/31650-stacker-precis-sans-letre/page-2


In the first post you wrote;

ploum wrote:
Ci joint un fichier avec le matériel auquel on doit ajouter une platine manfrotto 454 et au moins une fixation manfrotto 394.

A la place de la raynox 150 prendre plutôt une 250.... Ça dépend du capteur.

Si bridge prendre une raynox de plus et si possible la raynox 250 pour raccourcir le montage.


With Google translation to English

Google translation wrote:
Attached is a file with the material to which one must add a manfrotto plate 454 and at least one attachment manfrotto 394.

Instead of taking rather a Raynox 150 250 .... It depends on the sensor.

If taking a bridge over raynox and possibly the Raynox 250 to shorten assembly.


If the translation is good then it would appear that the attachment referred to is a parts list.

Could you post this please? Will it be in the order of construction starting from the camera please?

Also there is the photo you posted above.

[/quote]

Could you also post the parts list for this arrangement please in the order they are placed on the camera please.

Many thanks, Frederic.

Regards


John
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ploum



Joined: 18 Oct 2014
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sensor (with image) ----- Lens tube-------- Objective----- Object.


Sensor move for stacking. Sensor is free and keep out of dust with a neutral filter.


Lens tube and objective are fixed

Object move for repositionning.

Respositionning of object is usefull for keep sensor at the focal of lens tube (you move 1 cm).


Lens tube must be calculate with this open document. All is in this document.... Demonstration and measurement are exactly the same.

Diffraction is normally your limitation.

resolution of image = resolution objective is perfect. For that you must choose lens tube.

For 2x-10x objective as mitutoyo
If you have an APC-C 16 Mpix = lens tube 180 mm
If you have an APS-C 24 Mpix = lens tube 135 mm
If you have an micro 4/3 16 Mpix = lens tube 145 mm (135 mm is good)

http://www.alpinismeetmineraux.fr/mineralogie/macro/newmacro/pdc.ods

What's your matérials ?
_________________
I work with a manfrotto 454 but uncommon system. No limitation, no motorisation, good precision.
Objective : rodagon 135 mm, BW APO 2x, Compon S 80 mm, nikon CFI 4x, APO componon 40 mm, componon 28 mm, APO plan 10x, Mitutoyo APO 10x, BW APO SLWD 20x. Nikon CF EPI 10x, APO SEIWA 20x, MACRO ZUIKO 35 mm, nikon MPLAN ELWD 0.5 40x, NIKON CFI PF 10x.
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ploum



Joined: 18 Oct 2014
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A low priced listing is here.

+ a manfrotto plate 454 and is possible 2 manfrotto 394.

I have now a Alpha 6000 sony 24 Mpix.

Repositionnong system is here very basic but it's possible to make as me with.

http://www.geoforum.fr/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=248662
_________________
I work with a manfrotto 454 but uncommon system. No limitation, no motorisation, good precision.
Objective : rodagon 135 mm, BW APO 2x, Compon S 80 mm, nikon CFI 4x, APO componon 40 mm, componon 28 mm, APO plan 10x, Mitutoyo APO 10x, BW APO SLWD 20x. Nikon CF EPI 10x, APO SEIWA 20x, MACRO ZUIKO 35 mm, nikon MPLAN ELWD 0.5 40x, NIKON CFI PF 10x.
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dolmadis



Joined: 07 Dec 2011
Posts: 671
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Frederic

According to Excel your .ods file cannot be opened because it is password protected. Can you post an unprotected file please?

This is my materials list that I have available.

Canon 650D 18.0-megapixel sensor
Raynox 250 and 150
42mm extension tubes both auto and manual
Nikon BID DIC 210mm objectives Finite
Nikon E Plan 10x 0.25 objective Infinite
Nikon E Plan 4X 0.10 infinite
Bellows
a range of step up and down adapters
flat mounting adapters for the E Plan objectives
Manfrotto 454
Ikea Jansjo's

So please in what order do I put these together ? Just the camera side please.

And which tube length are you referring to please?

Thank you for your help.

Kind Regards


John
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dolmadis



Joined: 07 Dec 2011
Posts: 671
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Frederic

I had not seen your "budget pdf" until after I had posted above.

I have one Lab Jack already and a micrometer driven sample carrier although I do not have a rotary scale on it to measure movements although this can be provided from a printed scale I am sure.

Where do the 58mm tubes go please? And the 42mm Diaphragm?

And the overall question remains in what order do these all go together starting from the camera please?

Thank you for your assistance in putting an arrangement like yours together.

Regards

John
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ploum



Joined: 18 Oct 2014
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HI john you msut use open office or libre office for document.

Document is protected just for relations. it's fully usefull.

Camera has 42 mm tube

Diaphragm is not usefull but i use it behind objectif.

58 mm tube contain lens tube (system 42 mm inside 58 mm system).


sensor + 42 mm + filter / 58mm and 42 mm lens tube / diaphragm/ objective
_________________
I work with a manfrotto 454 but uncommon system. No limitation, no motorisation, good precision.
Objective : rodagon 135 mm, BW APO 2x, Compon S 80 mm, nikon CFI 4x, APO componon 40 mm, componon 28 mm, APO plan 10x, Mitutoyo APO 10x, BW APO SLWD 20x. Nikon CF EPI 10x, APO SEIWA 20x, MACRO ZUIKO 35 mm, nikon MPLAN ELWD 0.5 40x, NIKON CFI PF 10x.
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dolmadis



Joined: 07 Dec 2011
Posts: 671
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ploum wrote:


Camera has 42 mm tube. 58 mm tube contain lens tube (system 42 mm inside 58 mm system).


Hi Frederic

Thank you for the additional information.

I still cannot find how to open the .ods file.

And I still do not fully understand the order; "sensor + 42 mm + filter / 58mm and 42 mm lens tube / diaphragm/ objective".

Sorry.

So can I use a DSLR in your system?

I understand "sensor + 42 mm + filter ". I have done this before when I am using a bellows to protect the sensor from dust.

Is there another 42mm tube after the filter? Yes/No please.

If there is another 42mm tube after the filter how far does that project into the 58mm tube?

Then you say "58mm and 42 mm lens tube". How long is the 58mm tube to be for my Canon 650D please?

Where in the 58mm tube do you mount the Tube lens, How please do you do this? Is it a Raynox? Which one?

So does the infinity microscope objective mount on to the end of the 58m tube? Or does it mount on another 42mm tube inside the 58mm tube? If so how far does it project inside?

I am sorry for so many questions but although I have seen your diagrams it seems important to me to understand the exact dimensions required for your system for my Canon 650D.

I am sure that others will wish to try your system but they probably also need your help to get it right first time to test.

I hope you can help me some more please.

Kind Regards


John
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ploum



Joined: 18 Oct 2014
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolmadis wrote:
ploum wrote:


Camera has 42 mm tube. 58 mm tube contain lens tube (system 42 mm inside 58 mm system).


Hi Frederic

Thank you for the additional information.

I still cannot find how to open the .ods file.

And I still do not fully understand the order; "sensor + 42 mm + filter / 58mm and 42 mm lens tube / diaphragm/ objective".

Sorry.

So can I use a DSLR in your system?

I understand "sensor + 42 mm + filter ". I have done this before when I am using a bellows to protect the sensor from dust.

Is there another 42mm tube after the filter? No for sensor yes for tube 58 mm inside

If there is another 42mm tube after the filter how far does that project into the 58mm tube? yes but no junction with sensor

Then you say "58mm and 42 mm lens tube". How long is the 58mm tube to be for my Canon 650D please?

If it's an APS-C 18 Mpix ? That's depend of len tube and objective. Normally 10 cm tube 58 mm is usefull. You must calculate with parfocal also.

Where in the 58mm tube do you mount the Tube lens, How please do you do this? Is it a Raynox? Which one?

Tube 58 mm and tube 42 mm are together at the end => objective. Use a ring 58 mm/42 mm

So does the infinity microscope objective mount on to the end of the 58m tube? Or does it mount on another 42mm tube inside the 58mm tube? If so how far does it project inside?

that's depend of objective. I use 42 mm inside and outside for conjugate lens tube with sensor and also problems of vignetting.

I am sorry for so many questions but although I have seen your diagrams it seems important to me to understand the exact dimensions required for your system for my Canon 650D.

I am sure that others will wish to try your system but they probably also need your help to get it right first time to test.

I hope you can help me some more please.

Kind Regards


John

_________________
I work with a manfrotto 454 but uncommon system. No limitation, no motorisation, good precision.
Objective : rodagon 135 mm, BW APO 2x, Compon S 80 mm, nikon CFI 4x, APO componon 40 mm, componon 28 mm, APO plan 10x, Mitutoyo APO 10x, BW APO SLWD 20x. Nikon CF EPI 10x, APO SEIWA 20x, MACRO ZUIKO 35 mm, nikon MPLAN ELWD 0.5 40x, NIKON CFI PF 10x.
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ploum



Joined: 18 Oct 2014
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-fresh/
_________________
I work with a manfrotto 454 but uncommon system. No limitation, no motorisation, good precision.
Objective : rodagon 135 mm, BW APO 2x, Compon S 80 mm, nikon CFI 4x, APO componon 40 mm, componon 28 mm, APO plan 10x, Mitutoyo APO 10x, BW APO SLWD 20x. Nikon CF EPI 10x, APO SEIWA 20x, MACRO ZUIKO 35 mm, nikon MPLAN ELWD 0.5 40x, NIKON CFI PF 10x.
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dolmadis



Joined: 07 Dec 2011
Posts: 671
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Frederic

Thank you for the link to LibreOffice Fresh to open the .ods file.

I am summarising below your helpful answers to my many questions so that they can be seen more easily to those who follow this thread maybe now and later.

ploum wrote:


Q. Is there another 42mm tube after the filter?

A. No for sensor yes for tube 58 mm inside

Q. If there is another 42mm tube after the filter how far does that project into the 58mm tube?

A. yes but no junction with sensor

Q. Then you say "58mm and 42 mm lens tube". How long is the 58mm tube to be for my Canon 650D please?

A. If it's an APS-C 18 Mpix ? That's depend of len tube and objective. Normally 10 cm tube 58 mm is usefull. You must calculate with parfocal also.

Q. Where in the 58mm tube do you mount the Tube lens, How please do you do this? Is it a Raynox? Which one?

A. Tube 58 mm and tube 42 mm are together at the end => objective. Use a ring 58 mm/42 mm

Q. So does the infinity microscope objective mount on to the end of the 58m tube? Or does it mount on another 42mm tube inside the 58mm tube? If so how far does it project inside?

A. that's depend of objective. I use 42 mm inside and outside for conjugate lens tube with sensor and also problems of vignetting.



But there are some questions that I think you missed and perhaps I could raise them again please?

Q's. NOT FULLY ANSWERED

Where in the 58mm tube do you mount the Tube lens?

Is it a Raynox?

Which one?


And an extra one please.

What is the optical purpose in your system for the 58mm tube? What does it do?

Many Thanks again.

Kind Regards


John
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dolmadis



Joined: 07 Dec 2011
Posts: 671
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Frederic

I have been using Google translator on the geoforum.fr link you posted to read some of the other posts.

If the translation is correct then I understand that you are able to complete a stack of several hundred images in a short time without motorisation of the macro rail.

Is that correct?

If so how do you do that please? What is the workflow?

Thanks


John
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ploum



Joined: 18 Oct 2014
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it's correct motorisation is not an obligation. In fact all problems have a solution with my system : simple, easy and light.

My system is decoupling. No vibration between optical system and sensor or object. If you want you can done a complete decoupling system.

Sensor could be fixed without relation with optical system... Fix sensor with plate directly on the floor with a heavy plateform. All is possible.

300 secondes = 200 photos

Motorisation is more difficult also. That needs 2 systems ! But it's not usefull.
_________________
I work with a manfrotto 454 but uncommon system. No limitation, no motorisation, good precision.
Objective : rodagon 135 mm, BW APO 2x, Compon S 80 mm, nikon CFI 4x, APO componon 40 mm, componon 28 mm, APO plan 10x, Mitutoyo APO 10x, BW APO SLWD 20x. Nikon CF EPI 10x, APO SEIWA 20x, MACRO ZUIKO 35 mm, nikon MPLAN ELWD 0.5 40x, NIKON CFI PF 10x.
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ploum



Joined: 18 Oct 2014
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But there are some questions that I think you missed and perhaps I could raise them again please?

Q's. NOT FULLY ANSWERED

Where in the 58mm tube do you mount the Tube lens?

that depends of lens. Adaptation of the lenght with the focal of lens tube.
Sensor must been with this distance between lens tube and sensor (with 1 cm for stacking)

Is it a Raynox?

It's possible but raynox are not enough good for me. I have tested raynox, nikon lens tube or others.... Raynox drc 250 is good for an APS-C 24Mpix. This sensor as a high density of pixels.

Which one?


I have tested raynox, componon, rodagon, achromatic lens....

Best are componon and rodagon.

If you have an aps-c 18 Mpix a lens tube of 160 mm is the best (componon or rodagon 150 mm are a good choice but 180 mm is also good)

If you have an aps-c 24 Mpix a lens tube of 135 mm is the best.

And an extra one please.

My choice is on my photographs ! In 95 % of case it's a rodagon 135 mm for my 24 Mpix sensor.

What is the optical purpose in your system for the 58mm tube? What does it do?

This sytem contain the 42 mm system and is a proetction for external ligth. 42 mm tube of sensor is inside but don't touch 58 mm tube.

Many Thanks again.

Kind Regards


John[/quote]
_________________
I work with a manfrotto 454 but uncommon system. No limitation, no motorisation, good precision.
Objective : rodagon 135 mm, BW APO 2x, Compon S 80 mm, nikon CFI 4x, APO componon 40 mm, componon 28 mm, APO plan 10x, Mitutoyo APO 10x, BW APO SLWD 20x. Nikon CF EPI 10x, APO SEIWA 20x, MACRO ZUIKO 35 mm, nikon MPLAN ELWD 0.5 40x, NIKON CFI PF 10x.
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dolmadis



Joined: 07 Dec 2011
Posts: 671
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Frederic. I am beginning to appreciate what you are explaining and the issues you are seeking to address in your system.

I think that the question about stacking has led you to miss my repeat questions.

I will repeat them in summary if I may for you.

At what point is the tube lens inserted in your system? In the 58mm tube? Where please? Somewhere else?

What purpose does the 58mm tube provide in your system please?

Kind Regards


John
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ploum



Joined: 18 Oct 2014
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolmadis wrote:
Thanks Frederic. I am beginning to appreciate what you are explaining and the issues you are seeking to address in your system.

I think that the question about stacking has led you to miss my repeat questions.

I will repeat them in summary if I may for you.

At what point is the tube lens inserted in your system? In the 58mm tube? Where please? Somewhere else?

42 mm tube of sensor with filter is inside for 1 cm.... no more.

9 cm are for lens tube to conjugate with focal to adpat image on sensor with correct distance. Normally for 135 mm. no tube. Just behind objective. But is focal is more shorter i use 9 cm of 58 mm to adapt distance between sensor and lens tube. For more longer focal i use a 58 mm tube (4cm each). Length of 58 mm is adapted for more long focal. Length of 42 mm is adapted for shorter focal.

What purpose does the 58mm tube provide in your system please?

58 mm supporting the structure of optic system.

Kind Regards


John

_________________
I work with a manfrotto 454 but uncommon system. No limitation, no motorisation, good precision.
Objective : rodagon 135 mm, BW APO 2x, Compon S 80 mm, nikon CFI 4x, APO componon 40 mm, componon 28 mm, APO plan 10x, Mitutoyo APO 10x, BW APO SLWD 20x. Nikon CF EPI 10x, APO SEIWA 20x, MACRO ZUIKO 35 mm, nikon MPLAN ELWD 0.5 40x, NIKON CFI PF 10x.
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