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Putting together Canon EOS 30D and Leitz Metallux II
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Jaava



Joined: 01 Mar 2011
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Location: Espoo, Finland, EU

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:10 am    Post subject: Putting together Canon EOS 30D and Leitz Metallux II Reply with quote

Additionally I have ordered or I have:
- Eyepiece socket (the thing you put inside the photo tube)
Ernst Leitz Leica WILD Phototube adapter 30 (so ID = 30mm, for wide field eyepieces)- this is not meant to be used in Metallux II for the usable size of the intermadiate image is only 18mm. But OD is 38mm and the ID in the Leitz photo tube is 38mm - it should fit anyway.
- Eyepiece Periplan 10x M Leitz (OD about 23.4 and diaphragm 18mm)
- Objectives:

    - Sigma EX DC HSM 30mm 1:1.4
    - Canon EFS 15-85mm IS USM 1:3.5 - 5.6
    - Sigma DC 70-300mm 1:4-5.6 Macro

I draw a picture, to make this thing more clear to me:



NOTE: The exit pupil of the eyepiece and the entrance pupil of the lens (or camera objective) should coinside. This is not the case in above picture.

Questions:

1. I assume the eyepiece socket will fit into my Leitz photo tube, and an Periplan eyepieze will take correct position in it = intermediate image is on the entrance pupil on the eyepiece. Or?

2.1 I have to get an objective or relay lens that resizes the image to fit on the sensor?

2.2 I have to get an objective or relay lens that has entrance pupil position so that the exit pupil of the eyepiece will reach it?

2.3 Is any of my objectives proper as a relay lens?

3. Is it better to get a Periplan wide field eyepiece to be used with this eyepice socket?

4. I read somewhere that the distance from virtual image to the exit pupil of the eyepiece is 25cm (see the pic.). Is it and why?

5. If I use my Pentax bellows, and do not use any relay lens, getting a long distance from eyepiece to sensor, would this be any good?

Jaava
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Pau
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Putting together Canon EOS 30D and Leitz Metallux II Reply with quote

Jaava wrote:

Questions:

1. I assume the eyepiece socket will fit into my Leitz photo tube, and an Periplan eyepieze will take correct position in it = intermediate image is on the entrance pupil on the eyepiece. Or?

2.1 I have to get an objective or relay lens that resizes the image to fit on the sensor?

2.2 I have to get an objective or relay lens that has entrance pupil position so that the exit pupil of the eyepiece will reach it?

2.3 Is any of my objectives proper as a relay lens?

3. Is it better to get a Periplan wide field eyepiece to be used with this eyepice socket?

4. I read somewhere that the distance from virtual image to the exit pupil of the eyepiece is 25cm (see the pic.). Is it and why?

5. If I use my Pentax bellows, and do not use any relay lens, getting a long distance from eyepiece to sensor, would this be any good?


I can't answer all your questions but perhaps I may give you some opinions:

1. I don't know this phototubes, but because Leitz photo setups are designed to work with "normal" eyepieces, if the parts are matched with your microscope model they must be parfocal with the viewing eyepieces

2.1 Yes, this will work following the afocal approach.

2.2 Yes, but if the lens diaphragm is not too burried inside it and the lens aperture is wide, I think that this is not critical. If not it will vignette

2.3 it's a matter of try, in principle the 30mm seems the more promising.

3. Yes. The ones marked with a red dot are the ones that Leitz recommends for photography, but I didn't find any difference between a 10X red dot and a identical one without it.

4 & 5. I don't know, never tried it, altough I did read something about.

Few more points:
- for a 18mm eyepiece FOV and APSc camera the best fit of the whole relay system (eyepiece+relay lens) is about 1.5X - 1.6X. It can be acheived (approx.)
--63mm lens and 6.3X eyepiece
--50mm lens and 8x eyepiece
--35 or 40mm lens and 10X eyepiece

- Because your Metalloplan is a wide field microscope, if your Leitz objectives are marked PL or PL APO (not NPL) you can use eyepieces both for viewing and for the photo tube GW Periplan with a Field number up to 28mm and lower magnification.

corrected: You said Metallux and I did understand Metalloplan
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Jaava



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Pau for responding.
Yes, the type is Metallux II, having usable Intermediate Image 18mm (and Metalloplan 25mm I think).

Would it be better to get a GW type eyepiece, that has entrance pupil wider than above 18mm (this may cause less contrast?). Or should I just get/make an adapter sleeve to fit my GF-type eypece (OD = 23.2mm) into the eyepiece socket having ID = 30mm (see pic).

BTW. Just received the eyepiece adapter today and it is perfect fit to the photo tube of my trinocular head. This is for GW eyepieces and GF-type eypece is too small but Leitz has made an adapter to be used in Metalloplan. I believe, it is not too difficult to make such an adapter as a DIY project.

Almost microphotographer,
Jaava

Added a picture about the eyepiece socket:

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Jaava



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Location: Espoo, Finland, EU

PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I abandon the afocal idea, and make the eyepiece to draw the image direct to DSLR sensor, as Charles Krebs describes in one of his his nice articles.

Then it would be good to have an adapter sleeve that has possibility to adjust the eyepiece (up and down) to make the trinocular head parfocal and its entry pupil a little above the intermediate image.

See the pic. There is two pieces: Outer Ring (or barrel) and Inner Ring (or barrel) and threads between like in nut and bolt. This adapter sleeve is dropped into eyepiece adapter of Leitz photo tube (see pic in the previous message). GF-type eyepiece is dropped into this adapter sleeve. Outer ring is screwed in the inner ring until correct position is achieved for eyepiece.

Would it be possible to manufacture these kind on pieces, or maybe there is some commercially available already?

Thinkering,
Jaava

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Pau
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaava wrote:
If I abandon the afocal idea, and make the eyepiece to draw the image direct to DSLR sensor, as Charles Krebs describes in one of his his nice articles....


Charles and others Olympus and Nikon microscope owners use them as designed, with a matched low power eyepiece specially designed for photo (also called projective eyepieces) and with the adequate correction of the objective aberrations.
But Leitz and Zeiss did not made this kind of eyepieces in that era and its photo setups were designed to work with an eyepiece similar to the viewing ones (there are some special potoeyepieces especially well corrected and expensive like the red dot Periplan and the Zeiss S-Kpl, but still of the same type as the viewing ones, also very adequate), with a relay lens over the eyepiece, i.e. afocal setup.
A 10X eyepiece will project a real image, but MUCH larger and far, perhaps adequate for a large or medium format camera but not for a DSLR. Raising the eyepiece over its right position would correct partially this issue, but it will loss parfocality and may introduce aberrations as you are altering the microscope tube lenght.
So the afocal approach is the best one with this scopes to work as designed, and it also may be simpler and less expensive.

In my Zeiss scope I use Leitz objectives and Periplan eyepieces.
My main setup is with a Zeiss lens specially designed to this role, but I also use a simple setup with an inexpensive Olympus OM 50mm f1.8 over the eyepiece and it's equally good
Please take a look at:
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=91106#91106

Some samples with the later setup:
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=91043#91043

the lens that Wim adapted is like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ZEISS-M35-MICROSCOPE-CAMERA-UNIT-WINDER-/290613341813?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a9e7ae75
and, because it clamps over a 40mm tube it would be adequte for you. It is not rare and sometimes it sells for low prices.

To test the direct eyepiece projection setup, you don't need to make an adapter, just slide your bellows over the phototube (with the Leitz eyepiece inside) like in the Charles setup.
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Jaava



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pau wrote:
Jaava wrote:
If I abandon the afocal idea, and make the eyepiece to draw the image direct to DSLR sensor, as Charles Krebs describes in one of his his nice articles....


Charles and others Olympus and Nikon microscope owners use them as designed, with a matched low power eyepiece specially designed for photo (also called projective eyepieces) and with the adequate correction of the objective aberrations.
But Leitz and Zeiss did not made this kind of eyepieces in that era and its photo setups were designed to work with an eyepiece similar to the viewing ones (there are some special potoeyepieces especially well corrected and expensive like the red dot Periplan and the Zeiss S-Kpl, but still of the same type as the viewing ones, also very adequate), with a relay lens over the eyepiece, i.e. afocal setup.
A 10X eyepiece will project a real image, but MUCH larger and far, perhaps adequate for a large or medium format camera but not for a DSLR. Raising the eyepiece over its right position would correct partially this issue, but it will loss parfocality and may introduce aberrations as you are altering the microscope tube lenght.
So the afocal approach is the best one with this scopes to work as designed, and it also may be simpler and less expensive..


Ok, thanks for this info. So afocal is the way to go with Leitz.

I will put my camera into Manfrotto tripod with 3-axes head and Pentax focus rail. First, I will try my current objectives and some kind of thin black velvet barrel to hinder light between objective and eyepiece.

Quote:
To test the direct eyepiece projection setup, you don't need to make an adapter, just slide your bellows over the phototube (with the Leitz eyepiece inside) like in the Charles setup.

The hole in the photo tube as well as in the eyepiece adapter is too wide (30mm) for my eyepieces (23.2mm). I need to get an adapter 23.2 -> 30mm or to get a new eyepiece (GW having OD=30mm). Currently my GF eyepiece would fall down into the trinocular head Very Happy

Anybody knows sources for proper adapter sleeve 30 -> 23.2mm?

Jaava
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Pau
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's not rare on eBay, like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stereo-Microscope-Eyetube-Adapter-23-2-30mm-Short-Type-/170697187454?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27be58607e
Altough I think that the uppper shoulder is too high and it will raise the eyepice few mm over its parfocal position, cutting it to the minimal would be convenient.
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Jaava



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Pau,
I ordered both long and short type adapters.

I have tried to find these products from EU area, but without any success.
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Jaava



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First test picture taken!

I made a test assembly (made the eyepiece hang in the eyepiece adpter with two wires) to see if any of my lenses produces proper size pic about the object.
It appeard that my kit lens was the best zoomed to about 55mm. See the pic, my first ever taken trough a microscope (unknown objects):
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/2324/firsteverpic.jpg

The camera is not centered, the eyepiece is not parallel with the camera and the eyepiece is Periplan NF (FOV 15.2mm).

I'm waiting the 30->23.2 adapters and looking for better eyepiece (GF 10x with red dot or eyeglas symbol).
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Pau
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaava wrote:
First test picture taken!

I made a test assembly (made the eyepiece hang in the eyepiece adpter with two wires) to see if any of my lenses produces proper size pic about the object.
It appeard that my kit lens was the best zoomed to about 55mm. See the pic, my first ever taken trough a microscope (unknown objects):
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/2324/firsteverpic.jpg

The camera is not centered, the eyepiece is not parallel with the camera and the eyepiece is Periplan NF (FOV 15.2mm).

I'm waiting the 30->23.2 adapters and looking for better eyepiece (GF 10x with red dot or eyeglas symbol).


-55mm lens over a 10X eyepiece? I'm surprised because you're capturing almost all the eyepiece field (the black corners are from the eyepiece diaphragm, not vignette from the relay lens. Whith a 50mm lens over a 10X eyepiece my FOV is much more cropped, altough my eyepieces have 18mm FOV.
- To center the camera over the eyepice an useful trick is to close its diaphragm to see it (defocussed) vignetting the image and center this circle, better in live view.
- a burble level may be useful to set the parallelism between the microscope stage and the camera
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Jaava



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've taken scaling pics from my micrometer slide:







There is a lot of dust in the pictures. I think, I shoud get some lens cleaning solvent and tools.

The contrast isnt very good for there is some light leakage between microscope objective and camera objective.

The camera objective isn't very good. It is Kit zoom at 55mm, having a lot of chromatic aberration.

I'm waiting for a new eyepiece Periplan 8x Brille having a little longer eyerelief. Maybe this lets me to use some other objectives in my camera as well.

Jaava
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rjlittlefield
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaava wrote:
The camera objective isn't very good. It is Kit zoom at 55mm, having a lot of chromatic aberration.

I use that model lens regularly. It's quite good by itself. Sometimes CA can sneak into lens combinations that neither lens would show by itself. Could be that's what's happening here. Since you're running at 55 mm anyway, I suggest trying instead an old 55mm f/1.8 as illustrated HERE and HERE.

I notice also that the CA in your last couple of images is not radial as it should be. Instead the color fringes are consistently green on the left, magenta on the right. I don't know what's going on there. Almost looks like the light is going through a slight prism. Looking again, I see some component of that even in the first image. Some decentration problem, perhaps?

--Rik
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Pau
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dust particles you're showing are mainly located in the slide itself.
Perhaps some dirt may be in the illuminator surface glass, in some condenser lower surface and/or in the camera sensor
If they where in the lens they would degrade the image but would not be focused.

The chromatic aberration doesn't seem from the camera lens because it isn't simetric. May be due to misalignement of any microscope optical components.

With a classic 50mm standard lens you surely will avoid vignette. The canon 50/1.8 isn't expensive, but you can adapt an old m42, Olympus OM...etc for little money.
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Jaava



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for helping guys,
I have studied the lamp house and condenser system of my skope. There are 3 "handles" in the light tube:
1. Field diaphragm
2. Aperture diaphragm
3. Oblique illumination



3. Oblique illumination
The lever moves whole aperture diphragm up, down, left and right and even rotates a bit if needed.
It may cause chromatic aberration if the aperture diaphgram is moved very far from the center. As you guys said, my lense is not responsible about the chromatic aberration in the pictures of my previous message.

Clipped from internet:
"Oblique illumination produces a relief-like specimen pattern having regions displaying shadows and highlights, much like that observed with the differential interference contrast (DIC) technique in compound microscopes."

Jaava
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Jaava



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the complete setup for photgraphy with Leitz Metallux 2:



Jaava
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