Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

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Macro_Cosmos
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Re: Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

Scarodactyl wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2023 11:47 am
I guess that's what happens when they don't send them out to someone like you or Robert for review. Testing can be fairly challenging. I'm really curious if he'll have updated results with better lighting.
I'll admit I got worried when he didn't know to block the darkfield light path on the olympus...
The one versus objectives on a BX53 was posted by Laowa himself. Supposedly, it was from a very reputable scientist. I pointed out the issues and got ignored. Another person made a good point regarding off-axis light being terribly unfavourable to microscopes. Another issue is field number, of course FN26.5 (probably 22, let us be real here) will be worse than something that was designed to cover 40mm+.

I would love to see better tests.

Someone already made a pretty simple solution that allows the exchanging of magnification without unfun Lego.

Scarodactyl
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Re: Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

Post by Scarodactyl »

Yeah, some of the Oly m plans have great coverage (my mplanfl 50x/0.8 is really nice) while others do not.
I'd love to see the mag changing solution!

zed
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Re: Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

Post by zed »

Hi All,

I am currently in the process of test driving this lens set - so please allow me to add my perspective. Below is a link to a preliminary series of test images that include figures comparing resolution test targets vs. Mitutoyo Plan APOs, image comparisons of multiple subjects with variations in NA settings, as well as an interesting finding that I think is the root of all the bad talk about this lens kit so far - which is scattered light collected through the lens tubes due to a lack of proper flocking. You've got to be able to use large diffuse light sources with these lenses - so blaming lighting for poor image quality is ignoring the elephant in the room. You can see from the 'Back Aperture.jpg' comparison image that all that stray light is likely the source of the contrast reduction which ruins much of the stacking efforts.

These are high resolution files so please download and view appropriately. The images are all raw captures stacked in Helicon using Method B with default 8 radius/4 smoothing and are not retouched in any way. If you have any questions about my methods or setup please reach out.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/dy50a0bg ... 6fucdpfwz7

I commend Laowa for attempting to create a cross-over lens set that dramatically simplifies the transition from macro to microscopy. Microscopy is a daunting field, and this lens set has the opportunity to bring new creatives into this world that would normally be put off by the steep learning curve. This is a good first attempt - and I think we need to recognize it as just that - a first attempt. Mitutoyo sets the bar very high - and they have the price tag to match. The 50X HR lens I used in the comparison is a $7000 lens - and the 10x/0.28 and 20x/0.42 are another $3000 combined - so not really an apples to apples comparison - but these are the gold standard.

I will be writing up my experiences in greater detail - but here are a couple of additional thoughts:

1. Have a look at the resolution targets (Ready Optics USAF Extreme Target) https://readyoptics.com/usaf-target-dimensions/ - you'll find that this optic does achieve a 0.5NA, and only at 10x do we have trouble resolving Group 9, which is due to the Sony A7R3 not having a high enough sensor resolution for this NA. 35x-50x is really empty magnification territory here as well. The contrast is really destroyed by what I believe to be the scattered light issues with the tubes - but further testing will tell.

1. Lens mounting - it is not as bad if you mount the tubes by the lower lens element only. I used 2x SM2RC rings from Thorlabs plus some 3D printed adapters and was easily able to change out tubes without moving the objective or lighting. Normally I have to raise the entire setup to change lenses. There is a picture of the setup in the link above.

2. Corners with FF camera do vignette with 35x & 50x tubes. Yuk.

More to come as I spend more time with this setup - I've only had it for a weekend now.

Cheers,

-Jason

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Re: Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

Post by lothman »

zed wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2023 8:41 pm
More to come as I spend more time with this setup - I've only had it for a weekend now.
Thanks Jason for all the effort. =D> =D> =D>

One question: at this comparison "SunsetWing_NA_Comparison.jpg" the Laowa-0.5 pictures are softer than the Laowa-0.3. Shouldn't that be the other way round?
Beside that I think at 20x and 10x the Laowa-0.3 pictures are very close to the Mitutoyo, compared to the 50x HR Mitutoyo it falls clearly back, but would probably hold up to the "normal" Mitutoyo 0,55.

zed
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Re: Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

Post by zed »

lothman wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2023 2:17 am
One question: at this comparison "SunsetWing_NA_Comparison.jpg" the Laowa-0.5 pictures are softer than the Laowa-0.3. Shouldn't that be the other way round?
Ideally this should be true - however the Aurogon does not handle stray light well at its maximum NA with the lower tubes (10-20x) and the stacking behaves far worse with the aperture wide open. Again ideally it would be great to have a 10x/0.5 NA optic with such a long working distance, but I think they fail to hit the mark here (and it is a tough ask) - so it is necessary to close the aperture down to a much more reasonable 0.3.
lothman wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2023 2:17 am
Beside that I think at 20x and 10x the Laowa-0.3 pictures are very close to the Mitutoyo, compared to the 50x HR Mitutoyo it falls clearly back, but would probably hold up to the "normal" Mitutoyo 0,55.
You're correct! The Laowa images are a bit softer than the Mitty images - but enough to warrant spending the extra $$$? The images I provided have not been sharpened or processed in any way - but certainly they can be improved with a little PS work. I think beginners would be happy with the results.

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Re: Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

Post by rjlittlefield »

Jason,

Thanks for the tests and analysis -- this is very helpful!

A few comments...

1. I agree that stray light is a huge problem. However, I do not think of the problem in terms of lighting but rather in terms of subject size and its surrounding environment-- more precisely how much bright area lies outside the field that is imaged onto the sensor. If everything outside the imaged field is black, then all the light that gets through the aperture is angled so as to eventually hit the sensor, not the barrel. But light coming from bright areas that are much outside the imaged field is angled so as to eventually strike the barrel. It is those bright areas outside the field, in combination with the reflective barrels, that cause the stray light problem. One implication is that the stray light problem can escape notice when testing this lens with either a small isolated subject or with a trans-illumination system that provides a field stop.

2. Best practice is to avoid stacking in tests with flat resolution charts. The main reason is that the stacking process may do sub-pixel shifting of the images in order to align various frames, and the associated interpolation can mess with the contrast of pixel level detail. The canonical example is when a half-pixel shift turns alternating pixel values of 10,90,10,90 into 50,50,50,50 and the detail disappears completely. It's great to shoot a stack in order to guarantee capturing best focus, but then select just the sharpest individual frames for comparison. In case of curved field or slightly angled test target, you may need to select different best frames in various parts of the field.

3. Sharpness is not just a function of NA. The performance mentioned by lothman where NA 0.5 looks less sharp than NA 0.3 could easily be caused by aberrations that are worse at the wider aperture. https://www.bobatkins.com/photography/t ... ution.html has some good discussion of this issue. Note in particular that a lens with 0.5 lambda wavefront error retains the same high frequency limit as a perfect lens of the same aperture, but has severely degraded contrast at lower frequencies. The effect can be quite dramatic. At viewtopic.php?p=136282#p136282 and viewtopic.php?t=20594 , I show a damaged objective that still makes a pretty good picture of a resolution test chart, even though its performance for real subjects is quite degraded. On the other hand, if the loss of sharpness is well behaved so that the MTF curve does not drop too close to zero at any frequency, then digital sharpening can undo most of the loss, albeit with some increase in noise.

--Rik

Edit: corrected typo that said "NA 0.3 looks less sharp than NA 0.5" .

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Re: Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

Post by RobertOToole »

Hi Jason,

Just a quick thanks, excellent work.

Thanks for taking time to post this on the forum.

The Dropbox sharing works great too (I stopped using them for some reason).

Best,

Robert

lothman
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Re: Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

Post by lothman »

rjlittlefield wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2023 9:51 am
The performance mentioned by lothman where NA 0.3 looks less sharp than NA 0.5 could easily be caused by aberrations that are worse at the wider aperture.
No I found the NA 0.3 look sharper than the NA 0.5
Laowa_test.jpg

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Re: Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

Post by rjlittlefield »

lothman wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2023 2:50 pm
rjlittlefield wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2023 9:51 am
The performance mentioned by lothman where NA 0.3 looks less sharp than NA 0.5 could easily be caused by aberrations that are worse at the wider aperture.
No I found the NA 0.3 look sharper than the NA 0.5
Laowa_test.jpg
Thanks for catching my typo, and for embedding the specific imagery that you were talking about.

I have corrected my posting so that it actually says what I originally intended: "The performance mentioned by lothman where NA 0.5 looks less sharp than NA 0.3 could easily be caused by aberrations that are worse at the wider aperture."

The resolution chart provided by zed in his file "0.5-0.3NATest.png" clearly shows that NA 0.5 resolves more elements on the test chart, consistent with the wider aperture. But in contrast, the sunset moth scales show visually reduced sharpness at NA 0.5. This behavior is typical of aberrations that drop the MTF for lower frequencies, as discussed in the link I provided.

--Rik

zed
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Re: Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

Post by zed »

rjlittlefield wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2023 9:51 am

2. Best practice is to avoid stacking in tests with flat resolution charts. The main reason is that the stacking process may do sub-pixel shifting of the images in order to align various frames, and the associated interpolation can mess with the contrast of pixel level detail. The canonical example is when a half-pixel shift turns alternating pixel values of 10,90,10,90 into 50,50,50,50 and the detail disappears completely. It's great to shoot a stack in order to guarantee capturing best focus, but then select just the sharpest individual frames for comparison. In case of curved field or slightly angled test target, you may need to select different best frames in various parts of the field.
Just a quick clarification on my original post addressing the point above. All resolution targets are single images - converted to monochrome using the green channel only.

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Re: Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

Post by Lou Jost »

zed wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2023 5:09 pm


Just a quick clarification on my original post addressing the point above. All resolution targets are single images - converted to monochrome using the green channel only.
Oh, that's a large caveat. Chromatic aberrations are an important source of unsharpness in real life, but these are not going to be revealed by tests using only a singe color. I would strongly recommend using a full-color testing workflow if the goal is to judge sharpness in typical full-color applications.

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Re: Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

It appears that the Laowa is a very demanding lens when it comes to lighting.

I lifted one of your comparisons and boosted the contrast for the Laowa lens.
conboost.jpg


We can see that despite the processing, the (well, 0.75 NA and $6500) Mitutoyo still looks nicer. The lighting on the Mitutoyo appears to be completely different though. This is not criticism, it will be nearly impossible to make them the same.
However, the Laowa is not bad at all, albeit after some processing. To me, it looks similar to what a normal non-HR Mitutoyo would deliver.

Your open-frame scope looks neat. Is that a Thorlabs transmitted light module? I am jealous! I just scraped another AX70, I plan to repurpose the transmitted light train of it.
Were the USAF images taken before or after your custom flocking job?

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Re: Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

Post by lothman »

Macro_Cosmos wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2023 10:32 pm
It appears that the Laowa is a very demanding lens when it comes to lighting.
...
We can see that despite the processing, the (well, 0.75 NA and $6500) Mitutoyo still looks nicer. The lighting on the Mitutoyo appears to be completely different though. This is not criticism, it will be nearly impossible to make them the same.
The Mitutoyo 50X NA0.75 has a working distance of 5.2mm an a diameter of 32,2mm with a flat instead of conical shape.
M Plan APO HR 50X.jpg
This makes lightning to be very flat. May be this is the reason why the small cavities stayed black with the Mitutoyo. Probably the Laowa (with higher WD) allowed the light to be more upright, therefore being able to reach the bottom of the small cavities. So I suppose the Laowa is much less demanding in lightning than the Mitutoyo.

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Re: Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

Post by zed »

Lou Jost wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2023 6:56 pm
Oh, that's a large caveat. Chromatic aberrations are an important source of unsharpness in real life, but these are not going to be revealed by tests using only a singe color. I would strongly recommend using a full-color testing workflow if the goal is to judge sharpness in typical full-color applications.
Very true, except that resolution target tests are not measuring sharpness - but resolution - which are two distinct topics. Measuring FWHM from these targets needs to be done with a monochrome image, so typically 550nm range is an acceptable middle ground to benchmark resolution, which mostly corresponds to just the green signal from a bayer pattern.
Macro_Cosmos wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2023 10:32 pm
Your open-frame scope looks neat. Is that a Thorlabs transmitted light module? I am jealous! I just scraped another AX70, I plan to repurpose the transmitted light train of it.
Were the USAF images taken before or after your custom flocking job?
The transmitted assembly is actually a repurposed light path from an old Zeiss Axioskop 2 FS - it is just housed in a Thorlabs 60mm cage system. Why reinvent the wheel when you can repurpose old (and extremely good) designs right? The custom flocking is part of my setup - so all the Mitutoyo data was taken with these tubes.

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Re: Laowa Aurogon Super-Micro lens test and comparison (versus Mitutoyo etc.)

Post by Lou Jost »

zed wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:45 am
...Measuring FWHM from these targets needs to be done with a monochrome image, so typically 550nm range is an acceptable middle ground to benchmark resolution...
Ok, I guess you say that because resolution scales with wavelength. Makes sense.

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