Caution with cheap Power Supplies

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mawyatt
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Caution with cheap Power Supplies

Post by mawyatt »

During various developments my old trusty linear lab supply has been the choice for power. Recently we purchased a cheap "Lab Supply" from eBay as another power source, and Saul had warned about these causing problems.

Heeding Saul's warning this supply was only used for less critical uses, however preparing to make some calibration setups involving very low level measurements with the piezo Closed Loop Controllers & Stages we've been developing, the linear supply was not available so we grabbed the eBay "Lab Supply". During the course of trying to make some precision measurements the thought of investigating the impulse response of the Close Loop System seemed like a good idea, since the "Impulse" could be a tap from one's finger on the stage. This required an oscilloscope (scope) to "see" the system Impulse Response.

When the scope was hooked up, noise was everywhere, some was traced to the defective cheap scope probe (it's now tied up in a knot awaiting repair or the trash can), but way more noise than "should be" based upon the design. It turns out the d@#$ "Lab Supply" is spewing out noise, even unloaded and at zero output!! The old linear supply is nice and quite as it should be. Frankly I'm surprised the ultra high gain (136dB, or 6.3 million) precision Closed Loop System could handle the horrific noise from this "Lab Supply", but did so admirably!

Then decided to check the other +12V supplies we have, they all put out some noise as expected (they are all "switchers"), but nothing like the "Lab Supply" :shock:

The better noise +12V supplies we have all seem to be have the much thicker output cable and rated for higher currents.

Anyway, if your having problems with your electronics, look to the power supply as a possible source. Stay away from these cheap eBay "Lab Supplies" unless you need to run some LEDs, or motors, although I wouldn't use these for any precision stacking since the high levels of noise could interact with the current modulation features and create some sub-harmonic (intermodulation) effects in the motors.

If anyone else has these "Lab Supplies", please report what you find regarding the output noise. BTW most DVMs won't indicate this type of noise properly, so a scope is the best indicator.

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

This is why I stick with the old HP supplies. Dead quiet. And for other reasons as well...

enricosavazzi
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Re: Caution with cheap Power Supplies

Post by enricosavazzi »

mawyatt wrote:During various developments my old trusty linear lab supply has been the choice for power. Recently we purchased a cheap "Lab Supply" from eBay as another power source, and Saul had warned about these causing problems. [...]
It would help to know what this problematic power supply looks like, especially for members considering a purchase of this type of equipment.

Some of the eBay "lab" power supplies made in China are switchers, but some seem to use a mixture of digital and analog circuitry, and have heavy mains transformers as well as TO-3 or similar power semiconductors on relatively large heatsinks (I am not sure whether bipolar transistors, triacs or mosfet).
--ES

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

I wish I had another quality Lab Supply like the older "Linear" types.

The concept of a switching supply followed by a linear regulator is certainly a good approach, it's used in these Custom Controllers, and is the basis of the cheap eBay "Lab Supply". If done properly they can yield very low noise outputs, not a low as a straight linear, but still acceptable for general Lab use.

However, these supplies are horrendous, almost completely useless for any precision or delicate work! I may see if I can do some internal mods and make it at lease partially usable.

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

chris_ma
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Post by chris_ma »

interesting that there's such a difference...
any recommendation for a power supply that is in current production and doesn't break the bank?

mawyatt
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Re: Caution with cheap Power Supplies

Post by mawyatt »

enricosavazzi wrote:
mawyatt wrote:During various developments my old trusty linear lab supply has been the choice for power. Recently we purchased a cheap "Lab Supply" from eBay as another power source, and Saul had warned about these causing problems. [...]
It would help to know what this problematic power supply looks like, especially for members considering a purchase of this type of equipment.

Some of the eBay "lab" power supplies made in China are switchers, but some seem to use a mixture of digital and analog circuitry, and have heavy mains transformers as well as TO-3 or similar power semiconductors on relatively large heatsinks (I am not sure whether bipolar transistors, triacs or mosfet).
ES,

Here's the eBay Power Supply I purchased.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/30V-5A-DC-Powe ... 2749.l2649

This is based upon a switcher followed by a linear regulator. This is half-bridge switcher with NMOS TO-220 devices directly from the full wave rectified line voltage. This is followed by a linear regulator using TO-220 devices.

The assembly looks nice and is well done, but I see where some output filter caps were not used and the output common mode torrid should have more than just the output wires passing thru. This may be an area where I could improve the output noise.

There are a few versions of this type on eBay you will find, but this is the only one we have.

Maybe this is just a bad unit, don't know, but don't think we'll be getting another right away!!


Best,

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Last edited by mawyatt on Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

chris_ma wrote:interesting that there's such a difference...
any recommendation for a power supply that is in current production and doesn't break the bank?
For now, I would look to a surplus old linear Lab Supply. These are old school designs that have massive iron transformers and weigh a ton :shock:

I would stay away for the types like I've shown for now. If we can reduce the output noise without a lot of extra expense, then maybe these types will be useful.

Would be nice if someone already has one of these, and can also test for the output noise to see if this isn't just a bad unit, or a unit that was skimped on (missing parts), because these are a nice size, don't weigh much, and are well built.

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

The supplies I've generally used are the HP 6200 series. Here's an example, HP6214A, 12V 1.2A supply:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-6214A-Power ... 3431067450

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

Tried to reduce the output by adding unbalanced "Pi" type RLC filter and added some additional quality capacitors where "missing" caps were on the PCBs.

This helped some, but not enough to be considered for general purpose electronic use IMO. So my Go To Supply will still be the old linear type, and this will just be used for battery charging, LED & motor driving :(

One use will be for testing, if things work with this supply, then they'll probably work with anything :roll:

Best,Image
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Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

Saul
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Post by Saul »

My version of the LED fryer:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/362692207825

Chris S.
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Post by Chris S. »

Unfortunately, I think Mike's unfortunate finding can be broadly applied to most inexpensive lab power supplies commonly sold on Amazon, eBay, and the like; the ones that seem generic or badged in some name by a reseller.

When I needed a bench power supply, I really wanted to buy one of these, as the prices tend to be low for the volts/amps offered. But for those offerings I saw with a sufficient number of reviews to be representative, a repeating pattern emerged: Naive buyers would give good reviews, but knowledgeable buyers, who took the time to measure with oscilloscopes, would reveal damning flaws. Quite a few such reviewers cited cases where the power supply destroyed an item they'd been working on.

My reluctant answer was to buy a second-hand power supply from a known good maker, as Ray has recommended above.

--Chris S.

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

To add insult to injury, this is also spewing out massive amounts of noise onto the AC power line. I noted some "after thought" capacitors soldered on the backside of the main PCB, directly across the AC input. Suspect this is to try and reduce the AC line conducted noise, evidently not working very well :shock:

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

wpl
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Post by wpl »

I have a power supply that looks just like mawyatt has except that it is labelled "MASTECH DC POWER SUPPLY HY3003D." Set to 5 V output with no load, I am seeing noise spikes with maximum amplitude of about 15 mV occurring about every 20 microseconds. There is also high-frequency noise of much lower amplitude. The high-amplitude "spikes" actually are highly-damped oscillations with a period of about 30 ns.

This doesn't sound so bad to me, especially for a cheap power supply. Maybe I was lucky to get a good unit.

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

wpl wrote:I have a power supply that looks just like mawyatt has except that it is labelled "MASTECH DC POWER SUPPLY HY3003D." Set to 5 V output with no load, I am seeing noise spikes with maximum amplitude of about 15 mV occurring about every 20 microseconds. There is also high-frequency noise of much lower amplitude. The high-amplitude "spikes" actually are highly-damped oscillations with a period of about 30 ns.

This doesn't sound so bad to me, especially for a cheap power supply. Maybe I was lucky to get a good unit.
You could always add a LPF to clean up the supply, though regulation may suffer a bit. May improve output impedance vs frequency as well if you design the filter correctly.

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

wpl,

I'm seeing 300~500mv peak to peak, so yours is ~20X better!!

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

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