How the "bug shops" work?

Yawns · Post by **Yawns** » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:55 pm

54213602_109218656910407_5436299681762115584_o by antonio caseiro, on Flickr

Do you know from a reliable source how this market works ...?

I mean ... are the bugs (or any other insects) caught for this purpose or are they bred in captivity ...like chickens or else...?

Sometimes you see notes in the shops like: 236 sold .. 85 in stock.. and so, and some shops deal with large numbers of the same species

I know that amateur entomologists collect and buy insects like other people collect stamps or coins or else and there is a "market" for bugs.. it's not only about photography...

It's hard for me to believe that someone walks through the forest hunting 500 samples of ONE species only to supply to a couple of stores...as shops have multiple samples .. sometimes in packs of 10 of the same bug etc... (multiplying by 50 species and catching enough to supply only 3 stores and seems already impractical to me ... that makes me think there must be one "industry" to breed more desirable and attractive specimens ... flies and grasshoppers are common here and I can't imagine the job if I would had to catch 500 flies or 500 grasshoppers ...

On the other hand, the stores I know are in France, Germany, ... and it is hard for me to admit that these stores could be open and pay taxes by "trafficking" insects in some less legal, or less ethical way.... .just think of sanitary reasons and pests etc ... and the "green" lobby groups etc...

I was in the deep Brazil for a few months sometime (Amazonia... Rondonia, near Bolivia) and there is a lot of butterfly wing crafts there .. a "painting" made of butterfly wings glued to a canvas takes dozens if not hundreds of butterflies and they told me they were bread for that purpose .. Whether it's true or not I don't know ...

Some months ago I bought 5 bugs but I feel unsure about teh origin and the "ethics" of this thing ...

A bit useless for "extreme" because they are big like cows...

I don't know anymore what to do .. one of these days I will quit to this "extreme macro" thing with dead speciemens .. I'm sick of this talk about "killing an insect for a photo" and to have to deal with the missionaries of ethics ... nowadays I only kill what gets into my home.. flies, mosquitoes, ants, the occasional moth.. ...(they would die anyway with the insecticide...). my love for insects and worries about declining of the nature is not enough to let the flies walking on my food, ...the dogs get crazy when there's a blowfly buzzing around and so on... and I have plenty of undesired beasts at home as I live in a rural area in the edge of the little town, with free range horse, pig, goats and such breeders at my doorstep.

I don't go out for prey anymore since long ago...
But even like that I can't get rid of the ethical apostles.
When one feels treated like Hannibal Lecter because he killed a fly that was around in the kitchen .... over and over and over again .. when I feel like to abandon groups I like (for consistency, with the "policies" ...).. ..it wears me out.

This ethical thing and the "bashes" in the social media made a few person I know to quit .. in the Portuguese groups it's disgusting, .. ...but here the problem it's not exactly "ethical" .. the love of insects is just... the poor economy and low income make people jealousy of the photos and gear etc...

Anyway I would like to know how this market works... to make my decisions with facts.....

Thank you...

António

Lou Jost · Post by **Lou Jost** » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:16 am

Those are good questions and the answers are not always clear. Many of the showy butterflies are indeed bred in butterfly farms in tropical countries like Ecuador. These have little impact on the wild populations. The mass market demands perfect specimens, which are hard to get from the wild. However some of the smaller, specialty butterflies and moths are wild-caught.

I once reviewed some permit applications for the Ecuadorian Ministry of the Environment, and there were applications for cultivating species of large beetles, so I know that some people have figured out how to raise even these difficult insects in captivity for profit. This would have no impact on the natural populations. I have also seen permits granted for collecting large numbers of wild individuals of plants or insects "for research"; these almost certainly ended up being sold. So even legal things can be problematic.

Yawns · Post by **Yawns** » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:56 pm

Thanks Lou for the answer .. I have thrown the same question in other groups and I have received answers from various sides .. even amateur entomologists ... apparently it's a mix of everything .. breeding / hunting .. I believe these most "popular" and mass selling specimens "in the daylight" on eBay or on websites devoted to the subject ... are mainly bred .. the traffic will be more related to rare specimens intended for collections (not only private but even of institutions), for "medicinal" or jewelry purposes and stuff like that...

someone who answered in a group "nailed" my concern.

"Quote" .. It would be interesting to know the conservation status of those insects and understand if that market is sustainable. I am happy to take pictures of them, but I would be even happier to know that I am not interfering (and my hobby) with their very survival. ..

Exactly my concern.. but I wouldn't like to jump on conclusions before knowing all the facts...

Lou Jost · Post by **Lou Jost** » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:17 pm

Yes, I agree completely. And yes, it is a mix. But I think the showy, very popular things are mainly bred. Sunset moths and morphos, for example, seem to be bred in enormous quantities. This seems mostly unobjectionable, though it does require capture of some wild adults somewhere along the line...

Bob-O-Rama · Post by **Bob-O-Rama** » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:00 pm

I was wondering the same thing. I was at some place in Lancaster, PA and they had a "bug shop" with a euphemistic name like "treasures of the amazon" or some crap. In it was what looked like an entire rainforest of these mounted / preserved insects. I always assumed the source is horrible / nefarious - but it sounds like many can be captive raised - like stick insects.

Lou Jost · Post by **Lou Jost** » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:09 pm

I would have thought that the large beetles would be very hard to breed, but the permit applications I looked at did discuss elaborate projects to raise them.

Shadows · Post by **Shadows** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:30 pm

Very interesting topic.

I have been looking into this for the last couple of days, and I stumbled upon an online butterfly/insects shop that claims that not only are their specimen bred and not captured in nature, but also that "all insect specimens for sale are farm raised insects from around the world that died from natural causes" : is the "natural causes" part even possible ? Wouldn't butterflies at the end of their natural life have a tendency to get damaged wings, faded colors and so on ?

Lou Jost · Post by **Lou Jost** » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:23 pm

I've seen that eBay seller's listings and that statement about "natural causes" caught my attention too. NO butterfly farm lets their precious specimens flap around until they die of natural causes. Most big fancy butterflies are long-lived, and they generally look quite tattered near the end of their lives. No one would buy them. I do believe the butterflies sold on that site are farm-raised, but their definition of "natural causes" is probably quite creative.

Shadows · Post by **Shadows** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:52 am

I found the seller via its website, not on Ebay, but this might be the same company (or two companies using the same selling points). And unfortunately they don't provide any specifics as to what "natural causes" mean : as you said, they might bend the definition to their needs. I'll try to contact them to get more information.

That being said, it might be possible to use the idea of "natural causes" by getting in touch with people who have "pet insects", for example.

Another idea could be to focus on invasive species : the asian hornet, for example, kills native bees and hornets in Europe. Killing specimen from this species probably won't be considered as unethical by most people. Quite the opposite.

Lou Jost · Post by **Lou Jost** » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:17 am

I have great respect for the view that all "frivolous" killing is wrong, and I would not want to talk such a person out of their belief. But personally, I take a more ecosystemic approach. I do not find anything wrong with killing insects that are raised entirely in an insect farm, if they are not taken out of nature. Only a few founder individuals need to be taken out of nature, and this can be done without having an impact on the local wild population, if the numbers taken are small enough.

In fact, this sort of activity can provide incomes to local people who might otherwise have to cut the forest and plant crops for income. Traditional farming would have a greater negative impact, on many more species, than the butterfly farm. So to me, the butterfly farms are actually a positive thing. It might even become a motivating factor for local people to keep some of their forest intact.