Zhongyi (Mitakon) Super Macro Lens (1 - 5x)

Have questions about the equipment used for macro- or micro- photography? Post those questions in this forum.

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rjlittlefield
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Post by rjlittlefield »

mjkzz wrote:The very fact, in ICE, that changing the pitch, yaw, or roll values results in the final stitching and you can basically view the stitched result by dragging it around on the fly suggests there is a 3D model inside ICE.
Well, yes, but...

I would place a strong bet that the model ICE has consists of just the 2D source images, transformed to stitch as well as possible, and painted onto either the inside of a sphere (for rotating motion of the camera) or a flat plane (for planar motion).

This is a completely different sort of model from the arbitrarily shaped cloud of 3D coordinates that is derived by photogrammetry software such as Agisoft.

You could get some good information about this by just having ICE save its .spd project file and look at it with a text editor.

Unless your ICE is much different from mine, what you'll see is something like this:

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<stitchProject version="2.0" cameraMotion="rigidScale" projection="perspective">
  <vignetteCorrection redFactor="0" greenFactor="0" blueFactor="0" globalIntensityScale="1" />
  <structuredPanoramaSettings startingCorner="BottomLeft" primaryDirection="Vertical" primaryDirectionImageCount="1" movementMethod="Serpentine" angularRange="Non360" horizontalOverlap="65" verticalOverlap="45" seamOverlap="65" featureMatchingSearchRadius="58" />
  <sourceImages>
    <sourceImage filePath="D&#58;\ICETestImages\IMG_5336.JPG">
      <cameraPose rotation="2.1113558862707027" angleUnit="degrees" scale="1.0266714621875141" translationX="-2.8046375425416818" translationY="0.17504331072076043" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="D&#58;\ICETestImages\IMG_5337.JPG">
      <cameraPose rotation="2.8027014279138385" angleUnit="degrees" scale="1.0216128360373784" translationX="-1.9759522626285368" translationY="0.18678734198147384" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="D&#58;\ICETestImages\IMG_5338.JPG">
      <cameraPose rotation="2.4177594628315591" angleUnit="degrees" scale="1.0184447281230811" translationX="-1.0599850610593711" translationY="0.11559707407538145" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="D&#58;\ICETestImages\IMG_5339.JPG">
      <cameraPose rotation="0" angleUnit="degrees" scale="1" translationX="0" translationY="0" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="D&#58;\ICETestImages\IMG_5340.JPG">
      <cameraPose rotation="-1.4690234919657827" angleUnit="degrees" scale="0.99131786203196393" translationX="1.0409766840510208" translationY="-0.13616095407693127" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="D&#58;\ICETestImages\IMG_5341.JPG">
      <cameraPose rotation="-5.4649289120469131" angleUnit="degrees" scale="0.95412826639484549" translationX="1.8703774285429844" translationY="-0.34979123992370686" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="D&#58;\ICETestImages\IMG_5342.JPG">
      <cameraPose rotation="-14.001481554373" angleUnit="degrees" scale="0.91937403740105339" translationX="2.8220128507120843" translationY="-0.56792499372110861" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="D&#58;\ICETestImages\IMG_5343.JPG">
      <cameraPose rotation="-18.916709148301429" angleUnit="degrees" scale="0.920650512168474" translationX="3.6114931971313609" translationY="-0.901456332097808" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
  </sourceImages>
</stitchProject>
Note that there's nothing in here about structure of the subject, only about what to do with the images.

Please note that there is a fundamental difference between panorama stitching software like ICE and photogrammetry software like Agisoft: panorama stitching only works perfectly when the source images do not show parallax, and photogrammetry software only works at all when the source images do show parallax.

The fact that you're getting plausible results from the photogrammetry software indicates that your images do have parallax. I'm guessing this is because (a) your lens is not optically telecentric and (b) you're allowing Zerene Stacker to adjust scale. If that's not the case, I would be interested to hear more about your stacking process.

--Rik

mjkzz
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Post by mjkzz »

I would place a strong bet that the model ICE has consists of just the 2D source images, transformed to stitch as well as possible, and painted onto either the inside of a sphere (for rotating motion of the camera) or a flat plane (for planar motion).
OK, I will place my bet later as I need to digest what they mean :D

I am not saying ICE works the way I described, what I have shown is the way I would take -- compute camera pose, from there, compute texture mapping, then project computed 3D onto 2D.

Yes, the Zhongyi lens is not telecentric (but close as I mentioned before), this is why photogrammetry works.
Please note that there is a fundamental difference between panorama stitching software like ICE and photogrammetry software like Agisoft: panorama stitching only works perfectly when the source images do not show parallax, and photogrammetry software only works at all when the source images do show parallax.

The fact that you're getting plausible results from the photogrammetry software indicates that your images do have parallax. I'm guessing this is because (a) your lens is not optically telecentric and (b) you're allowing Zerene Stacker to adjust scale. If that's not the case, I would be interested to hear more about your stacking process.
Yes, fully understood. But then again this:
Please note that there is a fundamental difference between panorama stitching software like ICE and photogrammetry software like Agisoft
Do you have insights how ICE works? Or that is referring to how pano stitching works in general?

We know that a) this Zhongyi lens is not true telecentric, I do not think I ever implied that. b) yes, I am allowing Zerene to scale and this is the part I am amazed, too, because it work.

I fed those 40 images done with QV into Agisoft and Zephyr, both failed miserably as I do not think either play nicely with telecentric lens. Zephyr took 4 out of 40 images and the end results are just garbage as far as I see it.
Note that there's nothing in here about structure of the subject, only about what to do with the images.
Finally, maybe this is where I confused people. With non-telecentric lens, 3D structure of subject does matter as parallax will kick in and if not enough overlap, ICE would not stitch perfectly (no rotations of camera pose). We can look at this this way, say we have 100x magnification and overlap is 99%, then when ICE analyze these inputs, it is really analyzing the on-overlap part with constraints from overlapped part, and each image would appear flat.
Last edited by mjkzz on Mon May 27, 2019 11:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

mjkzz
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Post by mjkzz »

still studying the project file, mine has .spj extension. The camera pose matrix does seem to be a 2D transformation matrix. (edit: removed some comment, now my head hurts :D) This one is for the shell with 24 images. And I can see it uses homography

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<stitchProject version="2.0" cameraMotion="automatic" computedCameraMotion="homography" projection="perspective">
  <vignetteCorrection redFactor="0.145161286" greenFactor="0.145161286" blueFactor="0.145161286" globalIntensityScale="1" />
  <sourceImages>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-00.45.10 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.9603543905387476,-0.014619623622632055,-0.030679714958580781,-0.055700624191626809,0.95068224679437618,-0.01569045973678368,1.916215692906494,1.360771745015845,0.96309399493026371" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-00.52.30 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.94045442102382071,-0.0049083440694860578,-0.04397598810240963,-0.022604718420524892,0.98239516492889545,-0.0070178046281374655,1.9360457723907492,0.70512326046467488,0.967943103187354" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-00.59.31 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="1.0124374849547682,0.017040152060299726,-0.014693681373737614,-0.0081117702095201086,0.99542838333003936,-0.0066225099880345834,1.0390972130103917,0.677043538852607,0.98046247817062793" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-01.06.56 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.99313988285149657,0.015731990429619397,0.0033214827364122842,0.010315672110182363,0.97659265542501472,-0.015911285905166626,0.015222260139835578,0.67858829589686231,0.99449103635819647" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-01.14.13 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.95581967688142011,0.027411339751932308,0.010850136478734392,0.019984410173699507,0.98277854599033154,-0.009347332663716925,-0.98754123781027914,0.681477003179346,1.0082195913654084" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-01.21.10 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.95009927114162174,0.00039240817590424637,0.02176542444635661,-0.0017955527090968483,0.9967172397274312,0.0043733867290562146,-0.994826744686706,0.019866552846751206,1.0134871085006281" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-01.28.18 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="1,0,0,1.6263032587282567E-19,0.99999999999999989,0,6.9388939039072284E-18,-2.2204460492503131E-16,1" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-01.35.14 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="1.0119156774704978,0.0092425018407719349,-0.015427375013624404,-0.00217579559317764,1.0049836865549444,-0.0037302825334046847,1.031097583423342,-0.0019450382229737606,0.98587552273896428" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-01.42.20 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.93308435894018538,0.016350191999613295,-0.050334583671160116,0.013182037098984167,0.99687327433664441,0.00243047608514306,1.9524999352444068,0.017501518743163746,0.97308823813953027" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-01.49.30 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.93511838580851636,0.031511523745852761,-0.049921032211443547,0.014321119936413419,0.99982824395849268,-0.0028467741430714157,1.9523886683559939,-0.66925239564102634,0.97845376019682528" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-01.56.35 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="1.0027717894790653,0.0091878578742793,-0.019109288846255859,0.0016123917663418217,1.0038458467403064,-0.0018529084686414914,1.0578677975379551,-0.68424779787484824,0.99083764667690355" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-02.03.50 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="1.0031050540143345,-0.011058721443588337,-0.0043235524703106529,-0.0037501758323831066,0.99934415120464026,0.0019331065895766344,0.028560334743349874,-0.68009704372869062,1.0049203475369604" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-02.11.06 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.9609991971800399,-0.022878882711235324,0.024638650589164507,-0.020397089142745309,0.992420348298545,0.013397432854969398,-0.99104906944082238,-0.66118263398188359,1.018754742989084" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-02.18.27 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.97332577144041421,-0.034926363600906576,0.018178664325080959,-0.027399465027902779,1.0011862384616126,-0.002167463390141235,-0.9814791049240531,-1.3461716354833801,1.0239737190569171" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-02.25.51 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.99008599865239477,-0.018275546192159781,-0.0048590930181165812,0.00017635214671707714,0.979457039456407,0.00023264584702023354,0.017846850406866351,-1.352659441145486,1.010320415139182" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-02.33.08 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.99311730546300137,0.011111389592927266,-0.018388569852507697,0.0075884612797758313,0.981694455314178,0.00079449148977243055,1.0377540520394879,-1.3584133868430024,0.996379144112348" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-02.40.36 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.94130272692093209,0.044315783604392645,-0.045945725391998149,0.022857968059456713,0.99237718933514163,-0.0042222733850419691,1.9515931628644,-1.3527734929785451,0.98380341495867452" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-02.48.00 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.95333554933818054,0.044679838430738764,-0.038824856076631914,0.028551325050002026,0.98424757904750348,-0.004933810374420337,1.9439367694824461,-1.8385938235637656,0.98770298259111822" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-02.55.20 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.98289968771208758,0.009414193936011582,-0.017319559066264093,0.025343840303687679,0.94345061042027867,0.010104957956344359,1.0580738753063246,-1.8364612869102324,0.99983435994206116" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-03.02.51 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.98602998361038707,0.0015150244932088455,-0.01353348064192577,-0.0096557150715261934,0.97659869972086388,-0.0074954621918227916,0.040494362731328,-1.8370145506697992,1.0137929742756637" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-03.09.22 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.96930380339828193,-0.046278852537143395,0.013755447214419994,-0.036905998106335464,0.98350896712134472,-0.0045243784643693649,-0.95945989896449513,-1.8343793197966693,1.0274849854207819" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-03.17.14 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.945494978552982,0.057994644391869757,-0.00031476244813205545,0.036325807838848888,0.95629666219413434,-0.0009835604145080664,-0.96709729804508349,1.3064490941874072,1.0030577992244527" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-03.25.00 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="0.9928354445140537,0.036991270039302429,-6.3730550858809645E-05,0.01645568912153611,0.94125705702961693,-0.027395673336038547,-0.012787923683167515,1.3395820433632106,0.98971235369009558" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\SHL\2019-05-28-03.32.45 ZS PMax.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="1.0006343566377245,0.017670392075284289,-0.013670424272268321,-0.034199436426958385,0.93184197184253748,-0.032845130661108807,1.0044062478835054,1.3475656048246376,0.97570098814911321" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
  </sourceImages>
</stitchProject>

mjkzz
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Post by mjkzz »

OK, I do not think the content of ICE project file contains anything about how it works, it does contain final parameters with regard to computedCameraMotion (note it is computedCameraMotion) or in some cases, the actual "cameraMotion" (like rigidScale", etc).

So, I am not sure if we can gather how ICE make a decision when set to automatic. When set to auto, does it assume PlanarMotion first and then based on computedCameraMotion, output only the relevant parameters? I can see with different "computedCameraMotion", it uses relevant method to project final image (edit, so maybe for a particular computedCameraMotion, it uses 2D projection). And again, the fact that ICE allows user to dynamically change camera pose parameters and present an image on the fly suggests there are some kind of 3D transformation being done on those input images.
I would place a strong bet that the model ICE has consists of just the 2D source images, transformed to stitch as well as possible, and painted onto either the inside of a sphere (for rotating motion of the camera) or a flat plane (for planar motion).
So my bet is ICE uses internal 3D model, those 2D source images are projected onto this 3D model. Finally, it projects a 2D images based on user inputs (pitch, yaw, and roll) from this 3D model.

Of course, unless someone has internal ICE insights :D

mjkzz
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Post by mjkzz »

again, did a quick test to demonstrate some points, one of them is for Ray.

Here are the steps:

1) pick a sharp image, here, I used one of the jaw part of the beetle.
2) base on this image, create two images, one from first 2/3 and one from last 2/3
3) rotate the 2nd one by 0.5 degrees and then do some perspective transform on it, just a little, enough to see it is different from its original.

Now, stitch the two images using auto and pre-selected Planar Motion. With auto detection, actual computedCameraMotion is "homography" after saving the project file. With pre-selecting Planar Motion, thus restricting/forcing ICE to use "rigidScale" (revealed by the saved project file).

Save final ICE stitched images, then compare them with original one. My tests show the auto detection stitched images is closer to original than the pre-selected planar motion choice. So even if both "stitched", there are more distortion in the pre-selected one.

What this also shows is that under auto detection, some kind of model is computed before final decision, so my bet is on the 3D model :D

Original
Image

First 2/3rd
Image

Second 2/3rd with both 0.5% rotation and some perspective transformation
Image

Compare with original with AUTO
Image

Comare with roiginal with pre-selected Planar Motion. From this comparison image, you can see dimensions remain roughly the same, but there are big offsets.
Image



Code for Auto

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<stitchProject version="2.0" cameraMotion="automatic" computedCameraMotion="homography" projection="perspective">
  <vignetteCorrection redFactor="0" greenFactor="0" blueFactor="0" globalIntensityScale="1" />
  <sourceImages>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\TEST\1.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="1,1.2197274440461925E-19,2.1684043449710089E-19,0,1,3.4694469519536142E-18,-6.6613381477509392E-16,0,1" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\TEST\R05P.tif">
      <cameraPose matrix="1.0123799694023965,-0.0023288737636123903,0.0010059506494937229,-0.015535791173809949,1.0003140041198,0.017722162285879993,-1.0030942600168928,0.017073542406728509,0.99926511714295407" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
  </sourceImages>
</stitchProject>
Code for Pre-selected

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<stitchProject version="2.0" cameraMotion="rigidScale" projection="perspective">
  <vignetteCorrection redFactor="0" greenFactor="0" blueFactor="0" globalIntensityScale="1" />
  <sourceImages>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\TEST\1.tif">
      <cameraPose rotation="-0.19923261755910715" angleUnit="degrees" scale="0.99910693467901779" translationX="0.99839607744530734" translationY="-0.0088323391039773162" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
    <sourceImage filePath="R&#58;\Projects\MJKZZ\SnS\IMG\TEST\R05P.tif">
      <cameraPose rotation="0" angleUnit="degrees" scale="1" translationX="0" translationY="0" tolerance="4" />
    </sourceImage>
  </sourceImages>
</stitchProject>

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

By skewing one of the images and adding perspective, you're artificially introducing "camera motion". Stitching with planar motion is then an error, and this is why has more deviation vs original than stitching with "auto". But your original images don't have this type of camera motion, and thus should be stitched with planar motion.

mjkzz
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Post by mjkzz »

ah, OK, I think I failed to get the idea across. Anyway, what you said is absolutely right.

mjkzz
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Post by mjkzz »

Geez, they insisted on making a focus assist light, so here is an engineering copy of it. It is super bright, even at 5x, 4 stops down from wide open (or about real f/11), ISO=100, I get 1/5s metering on Sony A7III.

Not sure about its CRI, but for focus assist, this is bright enough. It can be powered via USB, so phone chargers, USB ports on a computer should work.

Image

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

Looks like a nice little ringlight! I'd buy that as a standalone.

rolsen
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Post by rolsen »

ray_parkhurst wrote:Looks like a nice little ringlight! I'd buy that as a standalone.
Yes, good idea. Would be nice to have this kind of thing in different sizes too.
- Rane

lothman
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Post by lothman »

any update when this lens will be available?

ChrisR
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Post by ChrisR »

ray_parkhurst wrote:Looks like a nice little ringlight! I'd buy that as a standalone.
NB https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... hp?t=34730
Chris R

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

ChrisR wrote:
ray_parkhurst wrote:Looks like a nice little ringlight! I'd buy that as a standalone.
NB https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... hp?t=34730
I can't find anything like that for sale today, at least on eBay. Do you have a link to an active auction or website with these available? they look pretty nice.

dolmadis
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Post by dolmadis »


ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

I believe so, thanks! That auction doesn't ship to US but here's one that does:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Macro-Lens-Wid ... 3325212194

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