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Nikon MM-11
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Smokedaddy



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:50 pm    Post subject: Nikon MM-11 Reply with quote

I picked this up on eBay a week or so ago and it arrived today. I was concerned that something might be wrong with the focus mechanism(s) but everything is like butter, no issues. I did ask but you never know on eBay.

Anyway I would appreciate any specific information on setting this up with my Canon 50D and the other necessary components to make this usable. I have search the site and read the postings but I'm not familiar nor microscope savvy so some of the components used and discussed are totally new to me. Plus maybe something has come up better, setup wise, than these older threads here.

If it matters I have a Meiji ML5000, Meiji 13TR Stereo package (trinocluar zoom body 1.0x-7.0x, PBH stereo microscope stand, pole style with halogen incident and transmitted light sources and a 10x Meiji stereo eyepiece WF) that I picked up long ago. Now that I'm retired I have plenty of time to get more involved, just lacking the knowledge.

I couldn't figure out what the stage was on Charles MM-11 (the bottom) part on the bottom of the stand. Plus if there are other interesting options. Anyway if anyone has suggestions I would appreciate the help. I figured bothering Charles privately all the time wasn't appropriate.

Regards,
-JW:





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ChrisR
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great stand, it depends which way you want to take it.

I have a similar stand, a UM-2. If you scour the listings you'll find a good deal of interchangeability of some parts, between models. I've seen a few poor stands with good looking bases, which are worth having. Mine rotates, has a glass platen and 2 inches of micrometer travel X-Y. They often sell for comparatively little - though they're heavy to ship.

Mine came with Nikon viewing/lighting and a turret with 4 objectives, so I intend to keep those as an option for use, though a conversion to infinite is tempting. That would have to be using fabricated parts.
My UM-2 head is in two parts, which means it can be split to use a (tba) plate with a camera mount. If I had yours I'd dismantle to check if you can replace the Nikon scope-fitting part to do the same. The focus mechanism is likely the same/similar as used on the Labophot 2. (Both are 100µm/rev)

A Nikon scope objective turret should slide in, then you could put a tube/camera on top of the arm you have, for direct projection, or if it's like mine, a standard trinoc etc head would also fit.
Ebay has people who make the dovetail to M42 (etc) fittings.

Whether all that's worthwhile ?
You do have the advantage of space, below the objective, compared with a normal 'scope.
It possibly wouldn't be hard to get a plate / box section made to interpose to provide you with more space between the vertical support and the objective axis.


I accumulated some photos/manuals of it/similar stands, I should be able to zip up and send you. Some may be on a busted drive though...
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Smokedaddy



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for sending all the files Chris. I never did find a MM-11 specific manual and I have searched the Internet. I'm probably shooting for something like Charles put together. Then later on build something like your horizontal setup afterwards. BTW, I did plug the stand in and the green light comes on but nothing illumination wise. I haven't taken the base off to check out the wiring (not that I will use it).

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17656

I'm not sure what all the added components are on Charles setup in that link to accomplish that setup since I'm new to all of this, or if something better has been added after that posting. I'm not to fond of buying something by guessing what it is, instead something that does work. You know, sort of like me putting someone behind a CAD station with a 3rd party piping module and ask them to start designing a high purity gas system for a tool in a clean room. I'm in a similar boat with microscopes, I know nothing about them.

-JW:
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JH



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

You need a dovetail adapter to begin with. For my Optiphot (one) I use "RafCamera 49.5 mm microscope dovetail to M42x1 thread adapter" (Ebay nr 191669019335) I Think you could use the same but take some measurements in case I am wrong.

From there you can add camera adapter/tubes/tube lens etc.

Then you need a Nikon nocepiece. The ones for 5 lenses RMS thread are quite common on Ebay.

Regards Jörgen
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Smokedaddy



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone care to identify the components I listed? I'm not sure if I've labeled them correctly either, such as IF B and C are the same item.

I assume B or C is the U-TLU? Are there any "differences" in an Olympus U-TLU Camera adapter or are they all the same? Also, I assume the typical questions in buying one would be, fungus, scratches, cleaning, swirls, maybe coating defects (if they're coated) etc?

I didn't see any Olympus U-TMAD's on eBay. I assume one would have to purchase direct from Olympus microscope (or where ever)? Is that possible?

I haven't a clue what D is. I assume some sort of adapter to allow a microscope objective to be mounted where a turret normally goes.

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Charles Krebs



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smokedaddy,

What you have now is a very solid foundation for a versatile vertical set-up. What you need to do now is consider what configuration will be most useful for the subject matter and types of images you want to take. There are a great many possibilities.

Initially, on "top" you will need to decide if you want to go to a camera with no trinocular head intervening, as with the initial image I posted of my set-up. The last few images in my post show how I eventually set-up using using a super-widefield Olympus trinocular head. If you have a camera that can be tethered to a computer, or where you can "feed" the live-view via HDMI to a monitor then both are viable options, and depend on personal preference (and subject to budget).

Next you need to consider the optics you will use. The MM-11 is designed to use Nikon Optiphot/Labophot nosepieces. These are readily available on eBay, and usually quite reasonably priced. Most of these nosepieces are RMS threaded (a common microscope objective thread size, while some are a larger 26mm thread.) Other size objectives can usually be "adapted" to fit, and it is even pretty easy to mount a reversed enlarging lens (or something similar) with a couple of inexpensive adapters. The optics you use should offer decent working distances to allow for external lighting (otherwise there is no real point in setting this up, better off using a regular compound microscope like the Meiji you pictured above.)

If you decide to go with microscope objectives you need to research it through a little. Working distances are critical. and you will be looking at "M" type objectives that are designed to be used with no cover-glass. Do you want to use newer "infinity" type objectives? If so then you need to provide an appropriate tube lens in the system. Do you intend to use "finite" type objectives? If so then you will need to set up the camera so that you have the appropriate (empty) tube length between objective shoulder and camera sensor (likely 150mm or 200mm.)

The top dovetail (where the microscope viewing head would attach, and where you might want to attach a camera) measures 48.8mm at the widest point on my Labophot heads. This one from RAF Camera looks like it could be a big help if you will not be using a Nikon head:
http://www.rafcamera.com/en/adapters/adapters-for-microscopes/for-microscope-dovetail/microscope-dovetail-adapter-48-5mm-to-m42x1#product_tabs_additional_tabbed
It would then provide a M42x1 male thread on top that would offer all sorts of adapting possibilities.

I'll give you the identification of the components you referenced in the above image (A-F) but for your purposes a different configuration might be better. So let us know what you have in mind...

What subjects (size) will you be working with (or perhaps what magnification do you know you might want to have.) Do you want/need microscope type binocular viewing eyepieces (a trinocular head) or will you be going direct to camera and do you viewing on a screen? What, if any, optics do you already have that might be of use here? If you give us some direction on this it will be easier to make suggestions. If you decide to go finite microscope objective (no tube lens) you might want to consider the 210mm Nikon M-Plans. If you want to go infinity type objectives then you can look at "M" types from Nikon, Olympus, Mitiutoyo and a few others. (Of course you then need to set-up a tube lens.)

In the reference picture above:

A) Olympus U-TMAD

Between A and B) Olympus U-TV1X

B) Olympus U-TLU

C) Olympus tube (U-EPA). This is normally used to raise the viewing head on a BX series Olympus if needed for more comfortable observation. It is not necessary here. The reason I did include it is that I do not have a Nikon stand to Olympus BX adapter. The Nikon female dovetail on the microscope is larger, so I needed to attach some shims to the Olympus dovetail to get a tight, centered fit. I already had a couple of these inexpensive U-EPA tubes, so I decided to work on the dovetail on one of these rather than possibly mess up the dovetail at the bottom of the much more expensive U-TLU component.

D) Single place Nikon Optiphot/Labophot nosepiece, RMS threaded. (Scarcer then hen's teeth!)

E) Simple aluminum plate. One of several option stage tops I add to "F"

F) Zeiss focus rack with x/y stage mounted to aluminum plate.
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dolmadis



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charles Krebs wrote:
Do you want to use newer "infinity" type objectives? If so then you need to provide an appropriate tube lens in the system.


I am also working on a similar project mounting a full Nikon Optiphot arm and focus block in a vertical rig.

Charles, Could you suggest please where in the "system" would you put a tube lens, what type of tube lens would you suggest using please and the relative position to the infinity microscope objective which I assume would be mounted in the RMS nose piece?

Many thanks for your help.

BR

John
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Smokedaddy



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As always thanks for the input Charles (and anyone else). It should be obvious that I'm not in the same league as most here but I do have a sincere desire to learn and develop the skills to learn something new and give it a shot.

Currently I have the following, Nikon El-Nikkor 50mm f/2.8, 28mm Schneider Kreuznach Componon (still haven't found a 30.5-52mm Step-Up Ring for this yet), Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8, a Canon 100mm f/2.8 macro and a slew of Nikon manual focus lenses. I have a complete Meiji EMZ-13TR body 1.0x-7.0x, and of course the Microscope I mentioned earlier with a few Meiji optics, probably standard optics that ship with the scope, Phase DM 40x/0.65 DIN, SMPlan4x/0.1-160/0.17, Phase DM 100x/1.25 DIN, Phase DM 10x/0.25 DIN and Plan2.5x/0.08 DIN (I'm not a microscope guy ... yet). I think I have a Meiji stereo 10x super wide field too.

I have 2 Canon 50D's with super low actuations that I would like to use for now. Since I now own a Nikon MM-11 coupling my 50D to the microscope was the intent. Being able to view the object to be photographed would be great especially if I'm able to use my 13TR, since I have it but that's not a deal breaker.

Optically I would want a decent working distance so I'm able to use external light sourcing. Magnification wise, I'm thinking 5x to 10x for now. Sorry, I don't know which approach I would take for a microscope objective, whether it be the old-style finite or newer-style infinite. Logically I would say which ever is available and cost effective. I know at one point in time I was looking at purchasing a Mitutoyo M Plan Apo 10x/.28. No particular reason, just from reading here. Then I'd have to be concerned how it was optically. I don't have the ability to evaluate a microscope objective, a telescope objective or mirror then yes.


Last edited by Smokedaddy on Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:58 pm; edited 3 times in total
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JH



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charles Krebs wrote:


The top dovetail (where the microscope viewing head would attach, and where you might want to attach a camera) measures 48.8mm at the widest point on my Labophot heads. This one from RAF Camera looks like it could be a big help if you will not be using a Nikon head:
http://www.rafcamera.com/en/adapters/adapters-for-microscopes/for-microscope-dovetail/microscope-dovetail-adapter-48-5mm-to-m42x1#product_tabs_additional_tabbed


Labophot and Optiphot should be the same size. But I use the 49,5 mm. I tillt the camera/tube/tubelens/adapter combination a little when I put in place or remove it. I have tested RAF:s 47 mm but with that one the camera/tubes shifts sideways - in some cases so much that I have had problems. I have not tested RAF:s 48.5 mm. If You buy the 48.5 mm I am interested to know how it works.

Regards Jörgen
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Smokedaddy



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I assume if I go with a setup like Charles (in this thread) so I will need a 4 or 5 piece Nikon Labophot nosepiece since I'll never find a single nosepiece adapter. The next problem is which one do I need to fit the MM-11 with the objectives I will be using "and" are there specific threads I need? How does the nosepiece physically adapt to the bottom of the MM-11?

A link would be appreciated.

-JW:

PS: Would it be tricky to machine a single nosepiece adapter to make this work?
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Charles Krebs



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Looks like the Meiji 13TR physically won't work on the MM-11.


I don't understand what you want to do. Why would you want to use the Meiji 13TR with the MM-11? It sound like you already have a nice stand for the stereo? What is there to gain?

If you give us some indication of intended subjects, or what you wish to achieve it would be helpful.

Earlier you posted:
Quote:
Optically I would want a decent working distance so I'm able to use external light sourcing. Magnification wise, I'm thinking 5x to 10x for now. Sorry, I don't know which approach I would take for a microscope objective, whether it be the old-style finite or newer-style infinite. Logically I would say which ever is available and cost effective.


The first things I would do is determine if it is at all possible to attach your Meiji trinocular head to the top of the MM-11 arm. This is a long-shot, but easy to try... you never know. I don't know the Meiji dimensions. If it is close, but a little too small, you can sometimes get a decent attachment by wrapping a solid piece of copper or aluminum wire around the inner base of the trinocular head dovetail.

Next I would determine the working distance of the 4X and 10X from your Meiji ML5000. If adequate, they could be mounted via a Nikon nosepiece. (Here again I am not sure what the advantage would be over using you Meiji ML5000 stand, but it would at least give you something to start out with).

Another simple set-up would be the RAF Camera adapter mentioned earlier. Add some M42 extension tubes (or bellows) on top and a camera adapter. A Nikon nose-piece could then be used to mount various optics. (Even something like your 28mm Schneider reversed). You could vary magnifications with varying extensions. (Or you could establish a fixed 200mm extension from nose-piece to sensor and try a Nikon 210mm finite M-type objective). Or set up for infinity optics as below...

John:
Quote:
Charles, Could you suggest please where in the "system" would you put a tube lens, what type of tube lens would you suggest using please and the relative position to the infinity microscope objective which I assume would be mounted in the RMS nose piece?


Not sure what camera and other "apparatus" you intend to use on top. If you were to use a Nikon "infinity" trinocular head obviously no problem... it is built in. If you are going to a camera (as in the picture posted here of my initial set-up) then I would consider something like the RAF Camera adapter mentioned here with perhaps the Raynox DCR150 used on that adapter as the tube lens (and then use sufficient tubes or bellows to get "infinity focus" for the Raynox lens.)
There has been a fair amount of discussion on the distance from the objective base to the tube lens. When a camera lens is used as a tube lens you typically want it very close to the front of the lens to avoid vignetting. With something like the Raynox (or an 'official" Nikon or Olympus) the distance does not seem to be very critical. (For example ... Nikon says 100-200mm with their tube lens, Olympus says 50-170mm with theirs.) I would not expect any problems with the Raynox (or Oly or Nikon or Thorlabs) mounted on top of the arm and the objectives on a Nikon nose-piece.

edited for Smokedaddy (looks like you changed your earlier message)Wink
Quote:

The next problem is which one do I need to fit the MM-11 with the objectives I will be using "and" are there specific threads I need? How does the nosepiece physically adapt to the bottom of the MM-11?

A Labophot/Optiphot removable nose-piece has a circular dovetail that fits directly to the MM-11. Many (most?) will have RMS threads (like your Meiji objectives). These can be adapted to a variety of objective threads if needed, so they might be the most versatile.
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Smokedaddy



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charles,

I'm just displaying my honest and complete ignorance in this subject matter, that being a microscope and its components etc. I didn't even know what a Raynox DCR-150 was until I started searching the forum and still not even sure mow how it applies to the MM-11. I thought it was some sort of snap on macro lens.

What do I want to do? Take pictures at 5x to 10x (for now) using my MM-11 using microscope objectives.

Also If I can somehow use the enlarger lenses I own or even some of my camera lenses, then I'll go that route as well.

Looks like the Meiji trinocular head (from the microscope I have) mounted fine. As usual, if parts/components are available by going with this setup, then that's find with me.

I don't see how a camera (my Cannon 50D) would attached to such a small tube on top of the Meiji trinocular.

Sorry for my ignorance,
-JW:

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Charles Krebs



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Looks like the Meiji trinocular head (from the microscope I have) mounted fine. As usual, if parts/components are available by going with this setup, then that's find with me.
That's great. It gives you some interesting options. Since it does fit, now look through your box of Meiji "goodies" and see if you have either of the two photo-eyepieces that Meiji makes: MA512 Photo Eyepiece 2.5X or MA986 Photo Eyepiece 1.9X. Let us know.

Regardless of how you decide to set this up (and you can go in several quite different "directions") you will need a way to attach objectives (and possibly other lenses). You will need an appropriate Nikon nose-piece. Here is a sampling of current eBay offerings... 171670091622, 201686846695, 291723693350, 252550539695, 262635971469, 252376461625, 182290178864. You want one with the Optiphot/Labophot circular dovetail mount on the back (as these have.) You don't really need a 5-place nose-piece, but they have the RMS objective threads. There are also quite a few 4-place nose-pieces available used but they are generally the larger 26mm hole size. (You can adapt them down to RMS threads if desired, see eBay item 191682611569).

On "top" you need to make some decisions. As I see it you have three basic options.

1) Use your Meiji trinocular head. With this you can view through the binocular viewing eyepieces and take picture with a camera mounted on the trinocular tube. There will be some expense in getting an adapter and probably a photo-eyepiece to mount the camera properly.

2) Get the RAFCamera adapter mentioned above. This will then give you an M42 male thread on top. You can then add either extension tubes or perhaps bellows to vary the "extension" amount. You could use "finite" microscope objectives, either 160mm type (like your Meiji) or 210mm type like Nikon CF M Plan Achromats. You could also adapt lenses like your 28mm Componon.

3) Get the RAFCamera adapter mentioned earlier. But instead of adding only extension (via bellows or tubes) you first add a "tube lens " at the top (and then an appropriate amount of extension to place this tube lens the proper distance from the camera sensor). You would then use "infinity" type microscope objectives.

In all cases, when working, you will want to be able to see the LCD screen view on the camera back. The 50D does not have an articulated rear screen. It is awkward and impractical to stand above it and look down. You can get a nice view by using the HDMI output jack on the camera and connecting it to a screen that accepts an HDMI input. It provides an excellent view and you can work well that way.
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Smokedaddy



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Charles Krebs"]
Quote:
Looks like the Meiji trinocular head (from the microscope I have) mounted fine. As usual, if parts/components are available by going with this setup, then that's find with me.
That's great. It gives you some interesting options. Since it does fit, now look through your box of Meiji "goodies" and see if you have either of the two photo-eyepieces that Meiji makes: MA512 Photo Eyepiece 2.5X or MA986 Photo Eyepiece 1.9X. Let us know.

Nope ... here's what's in the box. Just let me know what to look for then (MA512 Photo Eyepiece 2.5X or MA986 Photo Eyepiece 1.9X or something else). I didn't see either of those in eBay. If I have to buy them new, that's not a problem either.





... and if it matters, this was with the Meiji 13TR (different diameters of course, if they are of any use with this the setup we're discussing).



I reply to the rest of your posting in next.

Thanks again,
-JW:
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Smokedaddy



Joined: 07 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Charles Krebs"]
Quote:


1) Use your Meiji trinocular head. With this you can view through the binocular viewing eyepieces and take picture with a camera mounted on the trinocular tube. There will be some expense in getting an adapter and probably a photo-eyepiece to mount the camera properly.

2) Get the RAFCamera adapter mentioned above. This will then give you an M42 male thread on top. You can then add either extension tubes or perhaps bellows to vary the "extension" amount. You could use "finite" microscope objectives, either 160mm type (like your Meiji) or 210mm type like Nikon CF M Plan Achromats. You could also adapt lenses like your 28mm Componon.

3) Get the RAFCamera adapter mentioned earlier. But instead of adding only extension (via bellows or tubes) you first add a "tube lens " at the top (and then an appropriate amount of extension to place this tube lens the proper distance from the camera sensor). You would then use "infinity" type microscope objectives.


Egad(s) ... I really don't know. <red-face> Door #3 seems logical because of the infinity objectives and their availability(?), but Door #2 allows me to use some of my lenses which is a good thing, but I thought quality finite objectives were hard to come by?

-JW:
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