Some trouble with stacking artifacts...

pierre · Post by **pierre** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:38 pm

Markus,

This crystal is clean but I am afraid having some trouble reading it.
In my opinion, using method B or A might have provide better results.

etalon · Post by **etalon** » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:23 am

Pierre,

I do always all stacking methods in Helicon and Zerene. After that, I decided for the best result between Helicon or Zerene and than I combine the best parts of the different methods in PS CC2015. So, what you see, is the best of all Helicon methods...

And here is the next...

Gold x, FOV is ca. 1.7mm, Helicon C, 71 layer stack, Mitutoyo Plan Apo 10x, Raynox150 reversed, Olympus OM-D EM5 mk2 high res mode:

Cheers Markus

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:03 am

Comparing the first and recent images in this thread, it is clear that you've made great progress!

I have a special fondness for stereo, so I wonder, do you have any interest in generating stereo pairs for these samples?

Both Helicon Focus and Zerene Stacker can generate off-axis views from a single stack. Their methods are much different. Helicon Focus creates a 3D model from the stack and then rotates the model, while Zerene Stacker rotates the stack and re-renders from that.

Generally speaking, Helicon's method works better for subjects with simple geometry, especially no foreground/background overlap, such as the face of a coin. It falls down where the subject has complicated geometry. Zerene Stacker's method works with all sorts of subjects, but it has smaller limits on how wide the separation can be. This is because, roughly speaking, it can only generate off-axis views that lie well within the entrance cone of the lens when the stack was shot.

See http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... php?t=7819 for an introduction and numerous examples of Zerene Stacker's version.

--Rik

etalon · Post by **etalon** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:17 am

Comparing the first and recent images in this thread, it is clear that you've made great progress!

Thank you, Rik.

I have a special fondness for stereo, so I wonder, do you have any interest in generating stereo pairs for these samples?

This looks interesting, but I have one problem: I can´t see 3D with stereo pics. And for the reason, that I always put the best parts of ZS PMax and DMap together in the final image, I don´t know, how this should work with 3D stereo Images to look the same at the end?

A friend of mine did 3D pics while take two stacks and rotate the object between them for a small amount. Than he process it (I don´t know how) and display it on a 3D HD TV. It is breathtaking, absolutely awesome. Maybe I´ll try that after a while, when I have some routine in photomicrography...

Here an other crystal:

Autunite xx, FOV is ca. 1.7mm, ZS PMax, 124 layer stack, Mitutoyo Plan Apo 10x, Raynox150 reversed, Olympus OM-D EM5 mk2 high res mode:

Cheers Markus

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:06 am

etalon wrote:I can´t see 3D with stereo pics.

This is a common difficulty.

The comfortable solution is to obtain a stereo viewer, such as https://www.berezin.com/3d/wheatstone.htm. These devices contain mirrors that align the two separate images so that they overlap naturally as presented to your eyes. When properly adjusted, looking at stereo pairs through the viewers is very much like looking at real objects with just your eyes.

A friend of mine did 3D pics while take two stacks and rotate the object between them for a small amount. Than he process it (I don´t know how) and display it on a 3D HD TV. It is breathtaking, absolutely awesome.

Such processing is not difficult -- really just a matter of running the left/right images through some piece of software that puts a properly formatted wrapper around them. See the discussion at http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=16742.

As a quick "sanity check", perhaps you could have your friend reformat some of the stereo pairs from this forum for display on his TV. They will not be able to exploit the full HD resolution, but the stereo effect should come through OK. Just be sure to get the left/right orientation correct. Reversing them causes a depth inversion that people frequently interpret as "I see it in 3D, but it looks weird somehow".

Good examples of stereo with both opaque and transparent subjects would be http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=28177 (crystalline filler from epoxy adhesive) and http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 017#171017 (fruit fly larvae).

I always put the best parts of ZS PMax and DMap together in the final image, I don´t know, how this should work with 3D stereo Images to look the same at the end?

This sort of retouching can be done with stereo pairs also, but it is necessary to be more careful to avoid introducing differences that disturb the stereo view.

I often take a different approach and make two final images. One of them is a high quality, high resolution, freely retouched image for display as mono. The other is a stereo pair with little or no retouching. Usually it ends up that I spend most of my time looking at the stereo, despite the presence of more stacking artifacts.

--Rik

Pau · Post by **Pau** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:24 pm

Very nice last images!

The autunite is a good specimen showing cleavage so well. Would be nice to image it under UV light

dolmadis · Post by **dolmadis** » Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:14 am

rjlittlefield wrote: The comfortable solution is to obtain a stereo viewer, such as https://www.berezin.com/3d/wheatstone.htm. These devices contain mirrors that align the two separate images so that they overlap naturally as presented to your eyes. When properly adjusted, looking at stereo pairs through the viewers is very much like looking at real objects with just your eyes.

Would these achieve the same Rik in your opinion?

http://nvp3d.com/en/prism-glasses

Regards

John

ChrisR · Post by **ChrisR** » Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:20 am

I have one problem: I can´t see 3D with stereo pics

I'm sure Rik has more experience with this, but so far I haven't found anyone who can't see them after some self-training.
If you can look at something (eg a finger) about 200-250mm in front of your nose (with normal glasses if you need them), then you can cross your eyes enough.
There are many "instructions" around but here's mine -
Hold your stare on that finger while thinking about the images behind, which will be out of focus. Note how, if you tip your head about, those images' alignment changes.
When you have the two pairs of stereo images such that they overlap to make three images instead of four.

Hold your eye-cross but let focus drift to the stereos. That's the part which takes practice. So far in my experience, nobody has needed more than a couple of minutes.
It's very much "like riding a bike"!.

I always do it now by crossing my eyes more than necessary, then letting them uncross slowly, concentrating on the alignment. When the alignmnent is right, the images "snap" together, and you can look around inside the 3D image.
I encourage you to keep trying, it's well worth it

dolmadis · Post by **dolmadis** » Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:47 am

Whilst we have not actually "met" Chris I am one of those folk where devotion does not yield results.

I raised the "problem" with my optician in passing (whilst being examined for a large floater and potential retinal detachment) and she was not surprised given that I have a significant astigmatism in one eye (focus in two different point on Z axis?).

That is why I asked about these;

http://nvp3d.com/en/prism-glasses

I can wear these over my spectacles but I am unsure that they are an alternative to those Rik mentioned which have a very steep shipping cost and duty/VAT levy to the UK.

Regards

John

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:04 pm

dolmadis wrote:Would these achieve the same Rik in your opinion?

http://nvp3d.com/en/prism-glasses

I have never tried prism glasses, but I am deeply skeptical about how well they will work. This big issue is limited range of adjustment. Theory aside, I see a huge red flag that the advertisement starts off by telling me exactly how far I have to sit from the monitor. There is also some issue of chromatic aberration. These are prisms, after all, and pretty thick ones to accomplish the required shift. I have ordered a pair for evaluation. For my purposes I'm not optimistic, but they might work well in the context of one user with one monitor.

As for unaided viewing, I have no data on how many people never are able to accomplish that task. I do have distinct memories of spending several days with headaches, back in 1981 or so when I was getting good at the technique. I think the main difficulty is that it requires breaking a heavily learned connection between convergence and focus, but there's also an issue of paying attention to the subject and ignoring mismatch in the surroundings.

When properly adjusted, the viewers remove the convergence/focus problem and also reduce the problem of mismatching surroundings by limiting the field of view. My experience using viewers is that something like 4 out of 5 people have no trouble seeing side-by-side 3D prints in a minute or so of face-to-face time at a conference. Without the viewers, I wouldn't even attempt that.

--Rik

dolmadis · Post by **dolmadis** » Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:04 pm

Well Rik I could not have expected you to run a test !! Thank you. I must admit that I was not sure hence the question and I look forward to hearing from your later somewhere on the Forum.

REgards

John

etalon · Post by **etalon** » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:27 pm

Hello Gents,

here some new pics with the 2x Mitutoyo Plan Apo.

Malachite xx, FOV is ca. 8mm, Helicon, 19 layer stack, Mitutoyo Plan Apo 2x, Raynox150 reversed, Olympus OM-D EM5 mk2 high res mode:

Rhodochrosite xx, FOV is ca. 8mm, Helicon, 30 layer stack, Mitutoyo Plan Apo 2x, Raynox150 reversed, Olympus OM-D EM5 mk2 high res mode:

Boracite x, FOV is ca. 8mm, Helicon, 17 layer stack, Mitutoyo Plan Apo 2x, Raynox150 reversed, Olympus OM-D EM5 mk2 high res mode:

Cheers Markus