How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
Moderators: rjlittlefield, ChrisR, Chris S., Pau
How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
Hi,
I have to photograph the parasitoid wasp collection for the University of Azores, right now they are separated by families plus a spieces ID number. Families range from medium sized Braconidae, Ichneumonidae to small ones like Figitidae and Eulophidae (down to 1mm aprox). All this samples are stored in alcohol and some have been there for years.
Idealy would need lateral and top views plus maybe separate shot for wings
I do not know if there is a safe way to rehidratate with water some of this samples, maybe the big one, to better work with them;
otherwise I am thinking of using otherwise deep well microscope slides, either with alcohol or water?
I have to photograph the parasitoid wasp collection for the University of Azores, right now they are separated by families plus a spieces ID number. Families range from medium sized Braconidae, Ichneumonidae to small ones like Figitidae and Eulophidae (down to 1mm aprox). All this samples are stored in alcohol and some have been there for years.
Idealy would need lateral and top views plus maybe separate shot for wings
I do not know if there is a safe way to rehidratate with water some of this samples, maybe the big one, to better work with them;
otherwise I am thinking of using otherwise deep well microscope slides, either with alcohol or water?
- Planapo
- Posts: 1585
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:33 am
- Location: Germany, in the United States of Europe
Re: How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
Javier,
As this would help you a lot: Do you have a stereo microscope at your disposal to handle the wasps?
In the past I have handled some bees and quite a lot of ants, not so much for photography but for identification. Standard technique for mounting smaller hymenoptera is to glue them at the underside of their mesosoma on pointed ends of commercially available little stiff paper cards. The paper card is previously pinned on an insect pin at the opposite end from where the insect specimen is later glued on.
Alternatively for ants, one can glue them with tiny droplets of glue by their tarsi onto such a paper card (the paper card is then just rectangular, not pointed, and is also pinned on an insect pin beforehand.
This is what the above mentioned mounting technique looks like when a parasitoid wasp is glued at the mesosoma:
https://www.canolacouncil.org/canola-wa ... h-numbers/
https://cnr.ncsu.edu/news/2019/12/paras ... id=1&pid=1
It has the advantage that most morphological features needed for ID can be looked at under the stereo microscope by rotating and tilting the insect pin with the mounted specimen. Likewise it helps with positioning for photography.
But with the smallest of your wasps such a mounting method seems hardly applicable, and as you have suggested, photographing them submerged on a glass slide would be a way to go. (I know that tiny insects like Thysanoptera are commonly mounted on slides under a cover glass.)
For photography, submerging in a liquid is also advantageous for avoiding unwanted reflexions.
(If one wanted to know for sure how taxonomists who study tiny wasps mount them for their taxonomic work or photograpy, then one could look into some of their published papers or, easier today , send her/him a polite e-mail. That's what I would probably do.)
--Betty
As this would help you a lot: Do you have a stereo microscope at your disposal to handle the wasps?
In the past I have handled some bees and quite a lot of ants, not so much for photography but for identification. Standard technique for mounting smaller hymenoptera is to glue them at the underside of their mesosoma on pointed ends of commercially available little stiff paper cards. The paper card is previously pinned on an insect pin at the opposite end from where the insect specimen is later glued on.
Alternatively for ants, one can glue them with tiny droplets of glue by their tarsi onto such a paper card (the paper card is then just rectangular, not pointed, and is also pinned on an insect pin beforehand.
This is what the above mentioned mounting technique looks like when a parasitoid wasp is glued at the mesosoma:
https://www.canolacouncil.org/canola-wa ... h-numbers/
https://cnr.ncsu.edu/news/2019/12/paras ... id=1&pid=1
It has the advantage that most morphological features needed for ID can be looked at under the stereo microscope by rotating and tilting the insect pin with the mounted specimen. Likewise it helps with positioning for photography.
But with the smallest of your wasps such a mounting method seems hardly applicable, and as you have suggested, photographing them submerged on a glass slide would be a way to go. (I know that tiny insects like Thysanoptera are commonly mounted on slides under a cover glass.)
For photography, submerging in a liquid is also advantageous for avoiding unwanted reflexions.
(If one wanted to know for sure how taxonomists who study tiny wasps mount them for their taxonomic work or photograpy, then one could look into some of their published papers or, easier today , send her/him a polite e-mail. That's what I would probably do.)
--Betty
Last edited by Planapo on Fri Jan 05, 2024 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Atticus Finch: "You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view
- until you climb into his skin and walk around in it."
Lee, N. H. 1960. To Kill a Mockingbird. J. B. Lippincott, New York.
- until you climb into his skin and walk around in it."
Lee, N. H. 1960. To Kill a Mockingbird. J. B. Lippincott, New York.
- Planapo
- Posts: 1585
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:33 am
- Location: Germany, in the United States of Europe
Re: How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
Addendum:
As you have explicitely asked for rehydration to make your insects more flexible for positioning them nicely for photography:
From my experience the degree of stiffness of insects preserved in ethanol or isopropanol can depend on the concentration of the alcohol. Alcohol of 96 vol.% renders them stiffer then 60-70 vol.%. So if the concentration of the alcohol your wasps are preserved in is 96 vol.%, then adding some distilled water may help.
Another known technique I have applied successfully to make the joints of dried and mounted insect specimen from collections flexible again, is done by acetic acid (vinegar) . If you were interested how this is done, I could explain in more detail.
--Betty
As you have explicitely asked for rehydration to make your insects more flexible for positioning them nicely for photography:
From my experience the degree of stiffness of insects preserved in ethanol or isopropanol can depend on the concentration of the alcohol. Alcohol of 96 vol.% renders them stiffer then 60-70 vol.%. So if the concentration of the alcohol your wasps are preserved in is 96 vol.%, then adding some distilled water may help.
Another known technique I have applied successfully to make the joints of dried and mounted insect specimen from collections flexible again, is done by acetic acid (vinegar) . If you were interested how this is done, I could explain in more detail.
--Betty
Atticus Finch: "You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view
- until you climb into his skin and walk around in it."
Lee, N. H. 1960. To Kill a Mockingbird. J. B. Lippincott, New York.
- until you climb into his skin and walk around in it."
Lee, N. H. 1960. To Kill a Mockingbird. J. B. Lippincott, New York.
Re: How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
Thanks I run some tests placing the sample in propilenglicol with a coverslip on top to keep the subject from moving, as long as the coverslip is fully submerged there are not unwanted reflections, I am using difused reflected light. Some of this samples will need to go later on for DNA testing and the propingleglicol allows that too.
With bigger and more common specimens I may try to dry mount them, but for some species they only have one sample that might have been in alcohol for ages, I would like to ruin them
I do not get "beautiful" images, just lateral and top views plus nice view of the wing pattern and anthenas to get the ID. Some species may need extra images to identify them. I will publish some results
With bigger and more common specimens I may try to dry mount them, but for some species they only have one sample that might have been in alcohol for ages, I would like to ruin them
I do not get "beautiful" images, just lateral and top views plus nice view of the wing pattern and anthenas to get the ID. Some species may need extra images to identify them. I will publish some results
Re: How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
Some early tests with nikon J1, mitutoyo 5x plus raynox DCR250 on bellows
Shot jpg and just some mold processing
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/534 ... 092a_b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/534 ... 367c_k.jpg
Shot jpg and just some mold processing
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/534 ... 092a_b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/534 ... 367c_k.jpg
Re: How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
They look very nice and (I suppose) right for the task. Just I would place the scale bar at a more conventional place like horizontal at the lower or higher right zone of the image.
Are you going to do the job at Azores? if so, enjoy! they are wonderful islands
Are you going to do the job at Azores? if so, enjoy! they are wonderful islands
Pau
- Planapo
- Posts: 1585
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:33 am
- Location: Germany, in the United States of Europe
Re: How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
Nice work indeed! I am sure your clients will be pleased.
Agree with Pau about the scale bar.
Regarding your client's larger loan wasp specimens you are contemplating to mount, but would not wish to "ruin" with superglue, it may be helpful to know that in entomological museum work often methyl cellulose glue (= diluted wallpaper paste) is used for mounting insects.
This has the advantage that at any time later the bonding can be dissolved again by adding a tiny droplet of water on the hardened methyl cellulose glue.
--Betty
Agree with Pau about the scale bar.
Regarding your client's larger loan wasp specimens you are contemplating to mount, but would not wish to "ruin" with superglue, it may be helpful to know that in entomological museum work often methyl cellulose glue (= diluted wallpaper paste) is used for mounting insects.
This has the advantage that at any time later the bonding can be dissolved again by adding a tiny droplet of water on the hardened methyl cellulose glue.
--Betty
Atticus Finch: "You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view
- until you climb into his skin and walk around in it."
Lee, N. H. 1960. To Kill a Mockingbird. J. B. Lippincott, New York.
- until you climb into his skin and walk around in it."
Lee, N. H. 1960. To Kill a Mockingbird. J. B. Lippincott, New York.
Re: How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
Thanks Pau, in fact I have been living in the Azores for 2 years now, but first came here for a project in 2012. I like it here, a bit calm sometimes. Small islands in the middle of the atlantic you know
@Planapo the problem is that these are going to be the morpho species and samples may need to go for DNA testing afterwards ( no organic glues or liquids allowed), some of the samples I am going to work with are years old and soft..but this propilenglicol plus coverslip methos seems to do the job...getting a nice symetrical dorsal view without destroying the specimens probes to be quite difficult without damaging the legs, but they do not realy care about that as long as the features are seen
@Planapo the problem is that these are going to be the morpho species and samples may need to go for DNA testing afterwards ( no organic glues or liquids allowed), some of the samples I am going to work with are years old and soft..but this propilenglicol plus coverslip methos seems to do the job...getting a nice symetrical dorsal view without destroying the specimens probes to be quite difficult without damaging the legs, but they do not realy care about that as long as the features are seen
Re: How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
Seta666: I am an entomologist, not so much a photographer at the level I see on this site. I am interested in your sample wasp pix because I need to shoot a series of unknown parasitoids of weevils. Previous pictures of a few at the https://leptinotarsa.github.io/glossary ... itors.html : Images like yours are my goal, as they are rich in the detail needed for ID. My guess is that your advantage is in shooting on a slide instead of a pin mount. How does one do this? I use a Nikon 10x objective (or MPE 65), wemacro rail, and Canon body.
Of course any other advice you can offer would be great.
--David
Of course any other advice you can offer would be great.
--David
Admin edit, rjl: fix link to leptinotarsa.github.ioseta666 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 11:46 amSome early tests with nikon J1, mitutoyo 5x plus raynox DCR250 on bellows
Shot jpg and just some mold processing
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/534 ... 092a_b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/534 ... 367c_k.jpg
Re: How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
Hello,
Sorry for the late reply, I am back home on a short holiday.
I got best results by placing a coverslip inside a small round plastic container , then adding alcohol ( same as the one the samples come with) placing a coverslip on top and then adding enough alcohol to cover the coverslip ( helps with the light reflections). It works pretty well with up to mitututoyo 10/0.28 and I use diffused reflected light
I will go back to Azores next Friday, I will try to send some images then
Sorry for the late reply, I am back home on a short holiday.
I got best results by placing a coverslip inside a small round plastic container , then adding alcohol ( same as the one the samples come with) placing a coverslip on top and then adding enough alcohol to cover the coverslip ( helps with the light reflections). It works pretty well with up to mitututoyo 10/0.28 and I use diffused reflected light
I will go back to Azores next Friday, I will try to send some images then
Re: How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
Here are some pictures of the set up, sorry for the delay:
1- Samples sandwiched between to microscope coverslips and covered in ethanol
2- Sample on top of a white neutral cardboard adn surrounded by a small lenshood
3- Double cup diffuser, twin led lights and mitutoyo 10X
4- View of the set up, with nikon J1
Some sample images with this set up
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/541 ... 7334_o.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/541 ... f72f_o.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/541 ... 6261_o.jpg
For this project I use both the Nikon J1 with Mitutoyos 5X, 7.5X and 10X and the Sony NEX-5N with Mitutoyo 5X and canon MP-E, that allows me to photogram samples from 23.4mm to 1.6mm...tube lens used with the mitutoyos is the Raynox DCR-250
Truth it works best with small specimens, most of them are very small in size, 1 to 3 mm
1- Samples sandwiched between to microscope coverslips and covered in ethanol
2- Sample on top of a white neutral cardboard adn surrounded by a small lenshood
3- Double cup diffuser, twin led lights and mitutoyo 10X
4- View of the set up, with nikon J1
Some sample images with this set up
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/541 ... 7334_o.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/541 ... f72f_o.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/541 ... 6261_o.jpg
For this project I use both the Nikon J1 with Mitutoyos 5X, 7.5X and 10X and the Sony NEX-5N with Mitutoyo 5X and canon MP-E, that allows me to photogram samples from 23.4mm to 1.6mm...tube lens used with the mitutoyos is the Raynox DCR-250
Truth it works best with small specimens, most of them are very small in size, 1 to 3 mm
Re: How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
Excellent work!! Love the results - I have a few questions regarding the ethanol:
1. when you say they're sandwiched and covered in ethanol - does that mean the slides are covered or is the specimen covered with ethanol and then sandwiched?
2. do you notice some issues with the thickness of the slides and the ethanol resulting in softness or aberrations?
1. when you say they're sandwiched and covered in ethanol - does that mean the slides are covered or is the specimen covered with ethanol and then sandwiched?
2. do you notice some issues with the thickness of the slides and the ethanol resulting in softness or aberrations?
Re: How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
Thanks, glad you like it!!
1- I add enought ethanol so that the coverslips are covered, this prevents reflections and shows a cleaner image.
2- With the Mitutoyo 5X and 7.5X results are very good, with the Mitutoyo 10X there is some softness I guess from its higher NA but my workaround is to close aperture one stop via the M42 iris many of us use, becoming something more like a 10/0.21
Quality with the N1/mitus is more than enough for the job, with the Sony NEX /mitu 5X results are best and with the NEX/MP-E are softer, samples photographed with the MP-E are thicker which means more alcohol and more aberrations I guess, also the MP-E works better with FF cameras, with APS-C cameras its flaws show more.
One thing I forgot to say is sometimes I put a thin metal washer between the coverslips not to smash the samples, but truth is that I have not been using those lately
1- I add enought ethanol so that the coverslips are covered, this prevents reflections and shows a cleaner image.
2- With the Mitutoyo 5X and 7.5X results are very good, with the Mitutoyo 10X there is some softness I guess from its higher NA but my workaround is to close aperture one stop via the M42 iris many of us use, becoming something more like a 10/0.21
Quality with the N1/mitus is more than enough for the job, with the Sony NEX /mitu 5X results are best and with the NEX/MP-E are softer, samples photographed with the MP-E are thicker which means more alcohol and more aberrations I guess, also the MP-E works better with FF cameras, with APS-C cameras its flaws show more.
One thing I forgot to say is sometimes I put a thin metal washer between the coverslips not to smash the samples, but truth is that I have not been using those lately
Re: How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
Thank you for sharing!!seta666 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 8:50 amThanks, glad you like it!!
1- I add enought ethanol so that the coverslips are covered, this prevents reflections and shows a cleaner image.
2- With the Mitutoyo 5X and 7.5X results are very good, with the Mitutoyo 10X there is some softness I guess from its higher NA but my workaround is to close aperture one stop via the M42 iris many of us use, becoming something more like a 10/0.21
Quality with the N1/mitus is more than enough for the job, with the Sony NEX /mitu 5X results are best and with the NEX/MP-E are softer, samples photographed with the MP-E are thicker which means more alcohol and more aberrations I guess, also the MP-E works better with FF cameras, with APS-C cameras its flaws show more.
One thing I forgot to say is sometimes I put a thin metal washer between the coverslips not to smash the samples, but truth is that I have not been using those lately
Re: How to best photograph parasitoid wasp collection for ID
Thanks a million for the details on how you made your excellent images. The only difficulty for me is gravity: my set-up is horizontal. But it appears worthwhile to reconfigure. If I get to that soon. I'll upload some results.
--David
Here are some pictures of the set up, sorry for the delay:
...
--David
Here are some pictures of the set up, sorry for the delay:
...