blue LED chip on lamp "filament"

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rjlittlefield
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blue LED chip on lamp "filament"

Post by rjlittlefield »

Starting from the closeup view and working out...

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The backstory is that I recently had to replace an old Cree bulb, like the ones discussed at viewtopic.php?t=22018 and viewtopic.php?t=22033 . I went to the hardware store and selected FEIT brand in their "classic glass" style. As soon as I took one out of the box, I was struck by how totally different it felt from the old Cree bulbs. The Crees were heavy, with lots of formed metal for heatsink and internal supports. But the new FEITs looked and felt exactly like old incandescents. How odd!

Of course I had to investigate, and the first tools I reached for were a plastic bag, a centerpunch, and a hammer. Breaking the glass envelope revealed the inner structure shown above.

Inside, these "classic glass" bulbs have the architecture of Edison bulb look-alikes, with long skinny yellow things that light up when you apply power. Of course the long skinny yellow things are actually a bunch of LEDs, blue-emitting chips mounted on a ceramic strip and surrounded by fluorescent material that turns some of the blue into other colors so as to end up with "white".

Removing and dissecting one of the filaments is what produced the other photos shown above. After an absurd amount of time, effort, and assorted chemicals and heat treatment, I settled on physically carving away most of the fluorescent covering with a #10 scalpel, then scrubbing off what remained by using a toothpick and xylene. That gave me a couple of clean chips, unfortunately with all their electrical connections removed because those were exquisitely thin wires embedded in the fluorescent covering. The distance between contacts on each chip is only 0.5 mm, so they're small enough to be troublesome, though not nearly as fiddly as mounting diatoms. After a couple of days' consideration it was not terribly difficult to make a jig using size 000 insect pins, blunted with 15000-grit sandpaper, that would maintain stable contacts for electrical testing.

In the bottom of the bulb, not shown here, is a simple power supply that consists of little more than a full wave bridge rectifier, one large capacitor, and a couple of current regulator chips that appear to operate purely in analog mode, no evidence of digital switching. The bulbs have quite a bit of 120 Hz ripple at full brightness, but dimmed to about half brightness essentially all the ripple goes away. I'll write about that separately in the coming days. (Now done, see HERE.)

From a photographic standpoint, these chips trigger the behavior I've seen before, in which the color as seen by the camera looks nothing like the color seen by eye. By eye, these things are bright blue; by canon R7, they're purple; by Google Pixel 6a cell phone, they're bright blue but surrounded by a halo of darkness. I think I understand the color difference; the halo of darkness still seems a bit odd. I suppose that's some sort of HDR processing in the cell phone, toning bright blue down to something that fits better with other stuff in the photo.

Here's a cell phone shot, through the eyepiece of a stereo microscope:

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The single high mag image cropped for the first two images shown here was shot with Mitutoyo M Plan Apo 10X on Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM plus 1.4X teleconverter, EF-RF adapter to Canon R7 camera, in-camera focus bracketing. LED drive current about 5 µA.

--Rik

Leonardo
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Re: blue LED chip on lamp "filament"

Post by Leonardo »

rjlittlefield wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2024 2:08 pm

From a photographic standpoint, these chips trigger the behavior I've seen before, in which the color as seen by the camera looks nothing like the color seen by eye. By eye, these things are bright blue; by canon R7, they're purple; by Google Pixel 6a cell phone, they're bright blue but surrounded by a halo of darkness. I think I understand the color difference; the halo of darkness still seems a bit odd. I suppose that's some sort of HDR processing in the cell phone, toning bright blue down to something that fits better with other stuff in the photo.
Hello Rik,

I assume that the Led is mainly emitting at 458nm. This is a spectral color so is on the border of the CIE1931 diagram.
The camera/phone at some point should save/display as sRGB the color, so a gamut mapping is needed. There are many algorithms in literature and depending on the device/ISP the result can likely be a purple or a blue color because are very close on the sRGB diagram.
SRGB_chromaticity_CIE1931.jpg
The "purple halo" can also be related to pixel-crosstalk that is worse when gain is higher. Automatic HDR can increase the gain to avoid a slow exposure time (or use other tricks). To check if you have bad pixel-crosstalk you can try different ISO values while changing the exposure time to keep a constant brightness, the halo will be much worse at higher gain values. To be effective this test should be carried on with as little processing as possible (ex. RAW, no picture profile, etc..).

Cheers,
Leonardo

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Re: blue LED chip on lamp "filament"

Post by rjlittlefield »

Leonardo wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2024 4:29 pm
I assume that the Led is mainly emitting at 458nm.
Close enough. I get it a little shorter, more like 452-458 for the main peak, based on comparison with reference lasers photographed through a cheap diffraction spectroscope (more info on that HERE).
This is a spectral color so is on the border of the CIE1931 diagram.
That's true if all the light is coming from the LED.

But in the scenes photographed above, there's also a lot of room light coming from the surrounding environment, contributing to every pixel in the scene including where the LED is lit up.

That situation presents the sensor with smooth spectrum plus a big spike in blue, and the challenge is what the camera and software are supposed to make of the resulting sensor values. My personal visual system perceives the scene as normal colors plus some blue from the LED. The Pixel 6a pretty much agrees, while the Canon R7 decides that perceptual purple is a better guestimate for what scene colors would have produced the sensor values. Mathematically it's very similar to the issue of pixel crosstalk that you mention, but the physical origin is different.

If I photograph just the LED with no room light and a good exposure level, then even the R7 renders the LED as a nice pure blue. With over-exposure, the pixel crosstalk problem appears.

To illustrate, here is an exposure sequence ranging from slight underexposure to significant overexposure. Shot with the LED running at 197 µA (2.505V), exposed at ISO 100, effective f/36, shutter speeds stepping by 1 stop from 1/2500 second to 1/160 second.

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Since we're talking about spectra, here is a comparison that I think is interesting:

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The standard story about white LED's is that they let some of the LED blue escape unchanged, while adding green through red with fluorescent pigments. That's pretty much what I see here, but in addition there's a zone of longer wavelength blues where the intact bulb seems to emit more than I can explain by LED blue. I wonder if their fluorescent layer includes a bit of long wavelength blue also, or if not that, then what else is going on? Maybe it's just that the fluorescent pigments preferentially pick off the shorter wavelength LED blues, leaving the longer wavelength LED blues to look enhanced in comparison.

A few more details to record... These are FEIT "8.8W (60W Replacement) Soft White (2700K) A19 Enhance Dimmable Glass Filament General Purpose LED (4-Pack), SKU: A1960/927CA/FIL/4", described as 2700K and "90+ high CRI color rendering" , further details HERE.

--Rik

Edited to add: Figure 10 at https://www.olympus-lifescience.com/en/ ... ledsintro/ does show phosphorescence at significant levels in the region marked here as "Blue enriched?". No guarantee that applies to this particular unit, of course.

Leonardo
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Re: blue LED chip on lamp "filament"

Post by Leonardo »

It's just a guess, but the bulb finish "Milky White" can have an OBA to convert UV into Blue light for increased efficiency
Ex. https://deltahydrocarbon.com/brightenin ... -other-oba

Note: OBA (optical brightening agent) is commonly used in paper, paints and clothes to make things "whiter". With clothes it's removed with washing cycles, that's why after a while are not so bright anymore. Some detergents also contains OBA so they can restore the whiteness of our clothes.
Last edited by Leonardo on Tue Sep 03, 2024 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: blue LED chip on lamp "filament"

Post by rjlittlefield »

Leonardo wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2024 11:24 am
It's just a guess, but the bulb finish "Milky White" can have an OBA to convert UV into Blue light for increased efficiency
Ex. https://deltahydrocarbon.com/brightenin ... -other-oba
I assume that OBA means optical brightening agent.

I checked the white powder. It is not fluorescent under 365nm UV.

Interestingly, the glass itself is weakly fluorescent, glowing bluish white when a broken and washed piece is viewed on edge. But the fluorescence seems far too weak to explain the spectrum image.

--Rik

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Re: blue LED chip on lamp "filament"

Post by Leonardo »

The OBA is probably formulated to optimize the conversion of a peak (ex. around 400nm). If you have a spectrophotometer that can do M0 and M2 measurements you can easily find out.
An alternative test method is to take a picture under VIS+UV light (ex. 380/400) of the bulb and check if the color changes by removing the UV light source.

PS: 400nm is considered UV for these things. OBA can be removed if the object is washed.

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Re: blue LED chip on lamp "filament"

Post by rjlittlefield »

rjlittlefield wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2024 11:10 am
But in the scenes photographed above, there's also a lot of room light coming from the surrounding environment, contributing to every pixel in the scene including where the LED is lit up.

That situation presents the sensor with smooth spectrum plus a big spike in blue, and the challenge is what the camera and software are supposed to make of the resulting sensor values. My personal visual system perceives the scene as normal colors plus some blue from the LED. The Pixel 6a pretty much agrees, while the Canon R7 decides that perceptual purple is a better guestimate for what scene colors would have produced the sensor values.
After thinking over what I had written, I went back to the bench, took a closer look, and learned that the Canon R7 was right all along!

The problem was that I had inadvertently done an apples-and-oranges comparison. It's true that under most circumstances the camera sees the LED as purple, while I and the Pixel 6a see it as blue. But to take the picture at start of thread, the one where "there's also a lot of room light coming from the surrounding environment", I had to hugely dim the LED by limiting its drive current to just a few microamps. I remember that I was not able to use the scope while I was setting up the camera shot, and apparently I never did look at the LED through the scope after making it dim enough to photograph. Just now I repeated the exercise, but without the camera so I could use the scope, and this is what I saw:

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This is of course a Pixel 6a photo, showing the LED as purple, and the color matches very nicely what I see by eye.

So, my current understanding is that the Canon R7 purples have two causes: one being a true-to-life capture of mixing LED blue with room light, and the other being a bogus color due to overexposure.

The big difference for the R7, versus Pixel 6a and my eyes, seems to be that the R7 is a lot less tolerant of overexposure.

The same scenario probably explains the purple color in image #2 at viewtopic.php?t=22018 , some 10+ years ago with the Cree bulb. At that time I could have seen the LED by eye at low power with room light, but I don't recall ever doing that. I was more concerned with showing more accurate color, as done at viewtopic.php?p=137198#p137198 , and a cell phone blue worked OK for that.

--Rik

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Re: blue LED chip on lamp "filament"

Post by rjlittlefield »

Here are some more pictures of a different section of filament.

Let's start with an overview:

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For this section, I tried to remove the yellow stuff cleanly, by boiling the whole section of filament in nominal 70% nitric acid for a couple of hours.

I was hoping that all the plastic would come apart and dissolve away, leaving all the wires intact. But no, it's too tough for that. What the plastic actually did was to gradually curl up and separate from the white ceramic strip, taking most of the wires and some of the on-die contacts with it.

This was disappointing, but on the bright side it did leave behind some interesting ruins. Note especially that LED chip on the left side, where the big U-shaped electrode has been entirely pulled off the surface of the chip but the central I-shaped electrode has been only partly pulled away, revealing some sort of buried electrode below it. We'll look a lot closer at that section in a moment. On the right side of this photo, the very dark rectangle is actually the back side of a chip that the plastic has pulled completely away from the ceramic. Despite the appearance here, that "dark" stuff is actually a silver mirror that just happens to be reflecting the black hole of the lens. Every one of the LED chips has a mirrored back like that, presumably to increase the overall efficiency.

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Next we'll zoom in on that chip on the left side. (The above images were shot with a 2X objective; below is with 20X.)

Note the faint remains of the U-shaped electrode with contact pad on the right, all of which peeled cleanly off the surface. In contrast, the I-shaped electrode and its contact pad was apparently embedded, and has broken out with some chunks of the transparent chip still attached, revealing another buried contact below.

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Here's a much closer crop. You can see also in this image that the whole top surface of the chip is covered a faint hexagonal grid texture. I cannot tell whether those are bumps or pits.

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Now switching to stereo pairs, crossed-eye.

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These were shot with Mitutoyo 2X NA 0.055 and 20X NA 0.42 objectives, with Raynox DCR-150 on Canon R7 camera. The 2X stack was shot with continuous Jansjö illumination, using just diffusers wrapped tightly around the Jansjö heads. That worked OK for 2X, but it was a disaster for 20X. I'll show that later. The 20X stack you see here was shot with 2 electronic flashes, one on either side, diffused through sheets of tracing mylar. 150 µm steps for 2X; 2.5 µm steps for 20X.

--Rik

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Re: blue LED chip on lamp "filament"

Post by rjlittlefield »

rjlittlefield wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2024 10:19 pm
The 2X stack was shot with continuous Jansjö illumination, using just diffusers wrapped tightly around the Jansjö heads. That worked OK for 2X, but it was a disaster for 20X. I'll show that later. The 20X stack you see here was shot with 2 electronic flashes, one on either side, diffused through sheets of tracing mylar.
As promised, here's the comparison. On the left, diffusers around Jansjö heads; on the right, sheets of tracing mylar with electronic flash.

Warning: this is not a stereo pair.

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I think it's very interesting that the inadequate diffusion totally messed up the gold metal, but still gave a decent rendering of the other materials. I wonder if that's due to the metal having more small features to cause specular reflections, but I'm not confident that's the reason.

--Rik

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Re: blue LED chip on lamp "filament"

Post by Bob-O-Rama »

Rik,

The work is really interesting, I have a jar of them, and this may change my approach decapping them. The issue of these sorts of highlights is really problematic in general - nothing you don't know already, but essentially each facet is creating an image the light source in the OOF area. So we get to choose between a million flares, or a rather flat less "sharp" finished product. One thing I have played with moving the lighting around which shifts the direction of the specular highlight "cone" in the stack. So between multiple shots, the blown out area covers a different portion of the subject, merging them gets. It also can cause apparent shifts in the subject itself. So ... IDK.

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Re: blue LED chip on lamp "filament"

Post by rjlittlefield »

Bob-O-Rama wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2024 8:34 am
The work is really interesting, I have a jar of them, and this may change my approach decapping them.
If you find a good way to get the yellow plastic off, please share.

As mentioned above, I had some success with xylene and with boiling in nitric acid. I had no success with potassium hydroxide, alcohol, acetone, or Goof Off glue remover (N-Methyl-2-pyrrolidone). All of those had no obvious effect. I also tried burning it off with a butane torch. That did nicely char the plastic, and occasionally made it flame, but I could not modulate the process well enough to remove the plastic while preserving the wires.

I have idly contemplated some sort of laser ablation system, but that seems like the sort of thing I'd probably hurt myself with. :(

--Rik

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Re: blue LED chip on lamp "filament"

Post by Bob-O-Rama »

rjlittlefield wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2024 12:08 pm
Bob-O-Rama wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2024 8:34 am
The work is really interesting, I have a jar of them, and this may change my approach decapping them.
If you find a good way to get the yellow plastic off, please share.
I'll try ATTACK! Cured Epoxy Remover, its a mixture of dichloromethane and dimethylformamide. It swells many types of plastics and turns them to jelly or dissolves them entirely. It works very well on the clear rubbery material you see on directly mounted LED die like in a mouse sensor, and soft epoxy goop used on 1970's memory chips, or used to glue windows to some older EPROMS.

It also will completely dissolve the clear plastic LEDs are made from and the orange phosphor material from SMD LED lights, sytrene as used on SIMM cards, ID cards, it does that like almost instantly. The issue with ATTACK! is that it works by swelling and spalling off the swollen plastic, and when that happens to quickly, it can tear out encapsulated wires.

Note: does not attack black epoxy encapsulant used in ICs, even after months.

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