flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

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Babylonia
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flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

Post by Babylonia »

Hello. Already a long time ago I was active at this community. (Busy with other things).

In past I was a photographer and used to be working by analogue techniques.
All kinds of film formats used. 35mm - 6x7 cm / 6x9 cm roll film - 4x5” and 8x10” sheet film.

Retired, I want to digitize my archive for a selection of my work.

To do it by a more standard work-flow and more or less versatile and easy way, I am planning to buy Panasonic S1R for this work.
Yes I know, the hardware is already two years old, and there is to be expected an upgrade soon I guess?.
But maybe by covid, selling camera’s these times are lowered.
By that I can buy it now with a very high discount. So interested to buy one.

For making reproductions of these film material (negatives as well slide / positive material),
I want to take pictures by a “reproduction” set-up and an evenly lighting from behind,
through a milky / opal surface of matte Plexiglas.

As for single shot photography I can use my studio strobe (still having Broncolor equipment), as for back-light.

In cases of “pixel shift” I have to use a continues lighting LED-light,
I guess by voltage frequency “flicker” can give banding problems??
Maybe specialised photo LED-light can be used for it.
Interested in good recommendation for it. (Brand / type).

I still have also some old HMI lighting equipment. It can be used to.
(But taking lots of power and immense light levels - to much overwhelming for this kind of photography).

As for reproduction equipment 35mm I still have a Nikon bellows PB4 in perfect condition.
For connection to a Panasonic camera I have to use an L-mount to Nikon lens mount (e.g. Metabones).

As for reproduction lenses I do have a couple of nice “enlarger” lenses.
- Rodenstock Apo-Rodagon D 1:4 75mm M 1:1
- Rodenstock Apo-Rodagon N 1:4 105mm (this one, late production series = multi coated - very good lens).
(Even do have a piece of glass Apo-Rodagon N 1:4.8 180mm = more or les a "collectors item").

As for reproduction film formats.
- 35 mm format ---> just single shot is just already most effective I guess for these reproductions
(Using the Rodagon D 1:4 75mm)

- 6x7 cm / 6x9 cm roll film I think still single shot can be used.
Still Rodagon D 1:4 75mm
and or Rodagon N 1:4 105mm have to test which is best for the purpose

- 4x5” sheet film ---> multishot pixel-shift using the Rodagon N 1:4 105mm

- 8x10” sheet film ---> multishot pixel-shift using the Rodagon N 1:4 105mm
and maybe more closely dividing a 8x10 inch sheet into 4 pieces.
and using “stitching” technique of adding four “pixel shift” images together by panorama software.
To get all the details of an 8x10 inch sheet film ??

No idea, if this last option of using “stitching” technique have benefits,
as in real life 8x10” detailing is not as high by lower resolution lenses as per square cm.
than e.g. lenses used for mid format camera’s and even a more high standard for 35mm used format.

At least have to test these situations for best practical experience / result.

I did read a nice subject and testing “flat micro photography” by using this pixel-shift technique by @Beatsy

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=43368&hilit=pixel+shift

From what I read, it do have many benefits using this technique.
Although he is using a Sony camera, I guess this stands also more or less for the possibilities when using a Panasonic S1R camera?

Maybe also other users (of a S1R) can give some extra hints by their experience.
Are there readers by this community that do have experience as by comparable workflow and can give some good advice here?
Last edited by Babylonia on Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Greetings from Holland

kinglang
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Re: flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

Post by kinglang »

Apo-Rodagon N 1:4.8 180mm, Can't find any information, is there a picture?

Babylonia
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Re: flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

Post by Babylonia »

Sorry for late response. As for information Apo-Rodagon N 1:4.8 180mm
Some minor information shown in a list can be found here: https://www.photocornucopia.com/1061.html
The copy of mine is in good condition without scratches to the lens barrels etc., only at one of two extra tubes that are included. (To fix the lens to an enlarger).

APO-Rodagon-180mm_1_1024.jpg

By this extra tube the lens can be fitted more easily by a combination to a stepping down ring from 58 mm to 52 mm.
To that 52 mm a so called "Nikon BR2A" conversion ring from 52 mm to Nikon lens mount bayonet. That do fit to the Nikon macro bellows PB4.
So I can manage in a relative easy way in mounting this Apo-Rodagon N 1:4.8 180mm to the Nikon bellows.

The 180mm "rigged" by some conversion rings + two parts of Nikon "K-set" macro tubes and a (AliExpress) hood shown in the picture.
In this setting, the tube with the extra collar in the middle, normally this tube is turned around, so the collar is at the very end, and a way of fixing to an enlarger.
But as this collar is not a good place for holding a stepping ring (sunken part), I turned this tube as by the example as seen in the picture.

APO-Rodagon-180mm+Kset+hood_1024.jpg

The two lens tubes used in normal position, as for mounting the lens to an enlarger.

APO-Rodagon-180mm_2.jpg

Lens without tubes.

APO-Rodagon-180mm_3.jpg

The included "enlarger" fitting tubes by accident also do fit to a Rodagon 1:5.6 210mm --> same 58 mm screw mount
The left copy of a series of Rodagon enlarger lenses (although no APO - 210 mm - 240 mm - 300 mm).
Rodagon_3x.jpg

In meanwhile I bought the Panasonic S1R and did some first testing of these vintage old lenses,
by connecting the camera by "L-mount to Nikon lens mount" adapter to the Nikon bellows PB4.
Not testing for a real "flat" object reproduction set-up yet. As I have to manage a real "plan parallel" reproduction construction for it.
This 180 mm is a to long focal length for doing these reproductions of sheet film. (To big working distance).

Although a nice combination for doing "macro" shots. It do really well.

Besides that combination, also testing a Voigtlander APO-Lanthar 180mm / F 4.0 SL (bought several years ago).
It do already have a very close range as of 1.2 meter by itself for this kind of focal length (1:4 magnification).
Using the Nikon bellows, or just some Nikon "K-set" macro tubes, you can come into the field of macro distances.
That combination (as for macro in general) is really fantastic.
In spite it is not a macro lens, the qualities into this near distances is absolutely gorgeous.
Tack sharp to the point of focus and nice transitions to out of focus areas.
Last edited by Babylonia on Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
Greetings from Holland

Lou Jost
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Re: flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

Post by Lou Jost »

I think the readily available Sigma Art 70mm lens could be better. In L mount it has the advantage of being able to do focus bracketing with the S1R; this could be done automatically and quickly (maybe a three-shot bracket) to make sure that the slide (which is always slightly curved) is fully captured. It also has multiple options for how the focus bracketing is done, which would make things even easier for slide copying.

Babylonia
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Re: flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

Post by Babylonia »

You are right in conditions a "slide" is kept "free hanging" in a slide holder, it shall be slightly curved. Specially if you have in mind 35 mm film.
But that is not the way I am intending to work, as I have several sizes film formats.

As for film formats 6x7 / 6x9 roll film the play and "breath" of "free" hanging slides and far more as for 4x5" and 8x10" sheet film,
the only way to work is that there is a construction of a stable fully flat fixed sheet film holder. Specially when doing "multi shot pixel shift" pictures.
(Getting 187 Megapixel shots done by the Panasonic 1SR).

Film mostly is curved just a little in one direction. Hollow (concave) as seen from the "emulsion" side.
When taking pictures in a camera, by that characteristic of film, at the back there is a fully flat "film pressure plate".
To assure the film plane itself is fully flat when taking pictures.
For sheet film, the inner back part of the double sided sheet film holder has the same function.

That method practically keeps up for using 35 mm film format, rollflim and 4x5 inch sheet film as it comes to "taking pictures".
But you could not rely on it as for sheet film in the format 8x10 inch. Specially under conditions a camera is not set horizontally,
but leaned forward, and far more "vertically" (looking down). Sheet film is bending down by its own weight, and not in the focus plane
in the "middle" part of the sheet film holder. In that time when using 8x10 inch sheet film format, knowing I shall come into troubles,
by the camera position, I prepared the film sheet holder by putting small pieces of double sided sticky adhesive to the back plate.
By special treatment, making it just just a tiny bit "sticky". Enough to keep the film "flat" when putting in the film (and pressing to the sticky surface).
But not getting into troubles when taking out the film afterwards. (All in total darkness by preparing the sheet in place in a film holder).

An "aerial photographer" in that time I was befriend, was using a "Linhof aerial camera" using 70 mm "areal film".
To keep the film flat, the camera had a vacuum back. Only at the short time taking a picture it is working "vacuum",
Afterwards just a tiny bit the other way to get the film "free" to be transported motorised.

Enlarger equipment:
"Enlargement" (by an enlarger) in that time I used a special "prepared" film holder for 35 film to ensure a "flat" focus plane.
By using adhesive at the "sprocket" area's of a film holder, and have sticked a thin 35 mm anti newton "slide" glass, to the back of the film-side only.
Enlargement of 4x5 inch sheet film, the negative was sandwiched between glass to ensure a real flat focus plane.
(I didn't enlarge 8x10 inch sheet film myself, as I had not the equipment for this format).

Digital reproduction:
This absolute "flatness" of the film plane shall be the challenge for a construction to make when doing "reproduction" of the above slide and negative film formats.
I am planning to make a sort of "light table". Using matte white opaque plexiglass at using for the back of film formats only.
"Matte" to avoid "newton rings". Laying down sheet film, and covering by a mask around the borders of the film formats to pressure the film formats down.
Hoping (testing to do) that the matte light surface at the back and the scattering of light within the plexiglass itself shall have no negative influence
to show details of the "graininess" of the matte surface of the plexiglass itself.

So still a way to go.
Last edited by Babylonia on Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Lou Jost
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Re: flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

Post by Lou Jost »

Yes, there are many challenges to film, and curvature is one of them. I also used to work with 6x7 and 4x5 film and I remember those problems. My suggestion provides a simple digital solution to this problem, but of course it would be nicer to eliminate the problem rather than just correct for it. Good luck!

Bob-O-Rama
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Re: flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

Post by Bob-O-Rama »

If you are not dealing with mounted slides, have you looked into wet scanning? I saw this demonstrated by an archivist a while back as part of an OCLC sponsored event. It addresses essentially all of the issues that have been enumerated so far and is easily adapted to home use. You would need a space you can ventilate and a decent flatbed scanner that you don't mind doing a little surgery on to protect it from the scanning fluid.

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Re: flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

Post by rjlittlefield »

Bob-O-Rama wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:15 pm
... wet scanning? I saw this demonstrated by an archivist a while back as part of an OCLC sponsored event.
Can you post or point to more information about this technique?

(Google search on OCLC wet scanning gave me nothing relevant.)

--Rik

elf
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Re: flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

Post by elf »

This thread on the Large Format Photography forum has details for building a scanner used to copy negatives.

lothman
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Re: flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

Post by lothman »

rjlittlefield wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:34 pm

Can you post or point to more information about this technique?

(Google search on OCLC wet scanning gave me nothing relevant.)

--Rik
google for "scanning mounting fluid" or wetmount scanning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFbHt0y6R_Q

rjlittlefield
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Re: flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

Post by rjlittlefield »

lothman wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:26 am
google for "scanning mounting fluid" or wetmount scanning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFbHt0y6R_Q
Excellent, thanks!

--Rik

Babylonia
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Re: flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

Post by Babylonia »

Bob-O-Rama wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:15 pm
If you are not dealing with mounted slides, have you looked into wet scanning?....
I know the technique "sideways" as in old days of lithography for pre-press preparation this was more or less the standard workflow.
But as the redirection to this YouTube video show, it is a very time intensive workflow.
Besides (not shown within that video), it takes extra time and care to clean the films after scanning, for undoing the moisture, with serious risk of damaging film.
(I know from old days, when I got back several films after used for pre-press preparation).
It is not my intention to make it more difficult than necessary. This wet scanning is really to much work for me (personally).
Only the "last" option intending to do, if other methods / testing "dry" do not bring the proper result.

A couple of days ago I looked to my old equipment if I can "rebuild" some of it.
I have an old 4x5 inch enlarger of a former German brand "Homrich". Specialised in large format film equipment.
(Won in a draw about 44 years ago when old equipment was discarded at my photography school.
With a symbolic amount to pay for it - converted into today's amount about $ 40.- ).
Many years ago, I have used it very much to "enlarge" and develop prints of 4x5 inch sheet film.

Did already dismantle the "upper" part of it - the condenser box and light fixture above.
To make a "heavy" repro standard, including a bellows and lens mount already, as the below parts of this enlarger are intact.
Have to make a camera mount at the top at the place normally should stay the negative holder.
By free-up the upper part (no condenser and light any-more). It could be possible.

Shall see if I can place some pictures later.
More or less comparable by "this one" - but more simple and without the colour head light box.
(Just B & W) and without bell & whistles.

Although the nice thing about that equipment is that you can adjust the height of the entire "enlargement" by a crank at the base.
And adjust / fine tune the focus for the bellows only by another button at the base. See picture < HERE >
(In my case without motorised chain).
Greetings from Holland

Adam Long
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Re: flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

Post by Adam Long »

I wet scan most of my large format film.

It is somewhat of a hassle, although I have the correct mounting station for my drum scanner. However the time taken in preparation is compensated for by the significant reduction in dust spotting in post. The fluid must carry the dust to the edge of the film as the cover film is tensioned. The fluid also fills small scratches, making them less or invisible. The film is also held flat (or curved in my case) without any Newton's rings. It is a while since I did any comparisons but I don't remember much difference in sharpness, but halation over high-contrast edges was improved. However dry scans are perfectly usable if you don't mind a lot of dust removal.

For scanning fluid I use Gamsol which has a good RI, and is cheap, safe and evaporates in a short while. The Kami fluid is said to be both thinner and quicker to dry but it isn't economically available in the UK.

I've never damaged any film - in fact I'd be less likely to wet scanning as there is less direct handling.

Bob-O-Rama
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Re: flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

Post by Bob-O-Rama »

Adam Long wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:04 am
The fluid must carry the dust to the edge of the film as the cover film is tensioned.
It also makes dust less visible owing to more closely matching the RI of the fluid. If you take a UV flashlight and shine it on the mounted negative you can see that the occasional fluorescent synthetic fibers are still there, they are just made transparent. Also the resolution of the scans possible are going to be much greater than trying to photograph them, especially on larger negatives.

Can I ask, how did you manage ventilation? Did you have to set up a special place to do the work?

Adam Long
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Re: flat object reproduction photography - pixel shift

Post by Adam Long »

Ah yes, that makes sense.

Ventilation - to keep dust down or get rid of fumes? I haven't got a special place no, I just set the mounting station on my lightbox. I try to get the area dusted first and then only take the film out of the sleeve to put straight on the drum. To dry I blow the worst off with a puffer then hang them up by small bulldog clips under a dustcover and keep the window open. An hour is plenty. If I was doing it commercially I set up something better like a cabinet, but for occasional home use it's ok.
Also the resolution of the scans possible are going to be much greater than trying to photograph them, especially on larger negatives
Not quite sure what you mean? Due to their age a lot of drum scanners have file size limits, not something that will be a problem now. I don't think anyone makes drum scanners any more; commercial solutions are all photograph and stitch. I'd be surprised if you couldn't exceed the resolution with a modern sensor and a good lens. PMTs are pretty old tech too, surely dynamic range has improved? The drum is a great solution to the flatness issue, though the engineering isn't trivial.

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