PrimeFilm 10,000 dpi Scanner Arrives...in Pieces

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RobertOToole
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PrimeFilm 10,000 dpi Scanner Arrives...in Pieces

Post by RobertOToole »

Received a Pacific Image PrimeFilm XE 10,000 dpi model film scanner yesterday and wanted to share an interesting experience.

When I lifted it for the first time I actually thought I had been ripped off and the case is empty but it turns out its just a very light scanner :-k

I shook the scanner and could hear small loose bits rattling around inside. The case looked to be intact and the tamper-proof tape was undamaged ( confirmed this with the seller). The film transport lead screw was broken off. #-o

Incredible that out of all the scanners I’ve purchased in the past year, I've bought a few, the materials inside this scanner look out of place, like they belong in a child’s toy!

Will this scanner actually produce 2x the resolution of the Minolta Elite 5400? I’m a little skeptical for some reason but Ill post an update later. #-o

https://www.closeuphotography.com/blog/ ... alls-apart


__PrimeFilm-XE-broken-gear-open-case-www-closeuphotography-com.jpg
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/cont ... rmat=1500w
__PrimeFilm-XE-broken-gear-www-closeuphotography-com.jpg
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/cont ... rmat=1500w

chris_ma
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Re: PrimeFilm 10,000 dpi Scanner Arrives...in Pieces

Post by chris_ma »

I don't want to spoil the party, but no way that scanner will reach 10'000ppi, ever.

now that shouldn't stop you to take the thing apart and test the lens :)
chris

Scarodactyl
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Re: PrimeFilm 10,000 dpi Scanner Arrives...in Pieces

Post by Scarodactyl »

That would be the same NA as a mitty 5x, right? (Or are dpi not equivalent to linepairs per inch?)
It's weird that almost all scanner makers lie about their specs.

klevin
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Re: PrimeFilm 10,000 dpi Scanner Arrives...in Pieces

Post by klevin »

Scarodactyl wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 2:21 pm
That would be the same NA as a mitty 5x, right? (Or are dpi not equivalent to linepairs per inch?)
It's weird that almost all scanner makers lie about their specs.
They don't exactly lie. They give you the promised digital resolution, just not the optical resolution.

chris_ma
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Re: PrimeFilm 10,000 dpi Scanner Arrives...in Pieces

Post by chris_ma »

klevin wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 2:27 pm
They don't exactly lie. They give you the promised digital resolution, just not the optical resolution.
I'd rather say they give you the file size.
nothing to do with resolution, which in my eyes has to do with the word resolving, be it in digital or optical numbers.
chris

RobertOToole
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Re: PrimeFilm 10,000 dpi Scanner Arrives...in Pieces

Post by RobertOToole »

Scarodactyl wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 2:21 pm
That would be the same NA as a mitty 5x, right? (Or are dpi not equivalent to linepairs per inch?)
It's weird that almost all scanner makers lie about their specs.
To be honest all the manufacturers exaggerate except for maybe Nikon, and Minolta was pretty good also.

This manuf. is the worst. The true figure is something like 30% of the advertised figure.

No lp/mm is not dpi. Epson uses some old ISO standard that is supposed to represent the native res of the sensor.

Best,

Robert

RobertOToole
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Re: PrimeFilm 10,000 dpi Scanner Arrives...in Pieces

Post by RobertOToole »

klevin wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 2:27 pm
Scarodactyl wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 2:21 pm
That would be the same NA as a mitty 5x, right? (Or are dpi not equivalent to linepairs per inch?)
It's weird that almost all scanner makers lie about their specs.
They don't exactly lie. They give you the promised digital resolution, just not the optical resolution.
This is from the XE scanner lens page I'm working on now.

Optical Resolution and DPI

Scanner manufacturer’s use dpi for film scanner optical resolution specification purposes sticking with an old definition of ISO 14473 last updated in 1999. This specifies the maximum scan resolution, or sampling rate, of the CCD elements, but, this is completely useless since optical resolution of any scanner is the combined resolution of lens and sensor! This means that the scanner manufacturer’s optical resolution numbers using dpi are basically worthless and tell you nothing about optical resolution. A 2700 dpi scanner CCD should be able to read 2700 samples per inch but don’t make the mistake of confusing dpi and lp/mm.

Best,

Robert

RobertOToole
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Re: PrimeFilm 10,000 dpi Scanner Arrives...in Pieces

Post by RobertOToole »

chris_ma wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 3:56 pm
klevin wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 2:27 pm
They don't exactly lie. They give you the promised digital resolution, just not the optical resolution.
I'd rather say they give you the file size.
nothing to do with resolution, which in my eyes has to do with the word resolving, be it in digital or optical numbers.
I'm guessing but I think you are right in that in the beginning the manufacturers are promising a file size since you are digitizing film to print in a magazine, or the press, at least in the early days. Then the dpi number stuck.

Best,

RobertOToole
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Re: PrimeFilm 10,000 dpi Scanner Arrives...in Pieces

Post by RobertOToole »

Scarodactyl wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 2:21 pm
That would be the same NA as a mitty 5x, right? (Or are dpi not equivalent to linepairs per inch?)
It's weird that almost all scanner makers lie about their specs.
Sorry. Misread that....lp/inch!

I haven't seen that in ages. :D

lp/in x 4 pixels/lp = pixels per inch

10,000 x 4 = 40,000 pixels per in!?!

Well its not that. #-o

rjlittlefield
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Re: PrimeFilm 10,000 dpi Scanner Arrives...in Pieces

Post by rjlittlefield »

(Or are dpi not equivalent to linepairs per inch?)
I think most manufacturers equate dots per inch with pixels per inch.

So then 10,000 dots per inch should mean 10,000 pixels per inch = 394 pixels per mm, which at best could mean 197 lp/mm at the Nyquist sample limit.

But as you say, the reality is that their lens is not that good, so there's going to be a lot of redundancy between those pixels.

--Rik

RobertOToole
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Re: PrimeFilm 10,000 dpi Scanner Arrives...in Pieces

Post by RobertOToole »

Just finished testing the lens vs a new Nikon scanner lens rated at only 3100 ppi that I just picked up earlier this month.

The results were pretty interesting! :shock:

I'm uploading now but I need a break so I'm going for a walk with my wife.

I'll finish up and post something tomorrow, I don't want to spoil it but I can tell you that it will be worth a look for sure!

Best,

Robert

chris_ma
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Re: PrimeFilm 10,000 dpi Scanner Arrives...in Pieces

Post by chris_ma »

RobertOToole wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 7:31 pm
This is from the XE scanner lens page I'm working on now.
[...]this is completely useless since optical resolution of any scanner is the combined resolution of lens and sensor!
there are more parameters for the optical resolution, obviously it depends on how one exactly defines resolution, but generally speaking:
for linescan scanners that would mean that the film transport would have to be in accurate steps down to around 2.5um.
another problem is keeping the film flat. at 10'000ppi the DoF is about 15um, which is just about the depth of the emulsion (or about 1/10 of the film thickness) - ie. one needs glass carriers to keep the film flat enough.
finally, often sampling artefacts and noise often give the appearance of fake detail and mask the scan softness.

I've been working on a high end film scanner for over a year and developed a system that can scan up to 40'000ppi (for everything over 20'000ppi one needs focus stacking because the DoF is smaller then the film emulsion). everything over true 5000ppi is really hard to achieve. pretty much all high end film scanners top out around 4000-6000ppi, and no commercially available film scanner reaches true 10'000ppi, not even the best drum scanners.
chris

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