APO Corrected 1.35x Scanner Lens For $20 PrimeFilm 3650u

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typestar
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Post by typestar »

ray_parkhurst wrote:I just picked up an LS-30 on eBay
Hi Ray,

can you already report on the power your Coolscan III lens, compared to others... ?

According to the Nikon specs its a 6 lenses in 4 groups lens.
Despite the fact that is has (officially) no ED lens included (?) -
I believe the most straitening part on the older Nikons was not the lens itself but the development / resolution capability of the sensor and the software

Thankyou for your your thoughts or report

Christian

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

Christian, I think the software and lens advances went hand in hand. There was no need for sophisticated lenses as long as the sensor was primitive.

typestar
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Post by typestar »

Lou Jost wrote:Christian, I think the software and lens advances went hand in hand. There was no need for sophisticated lenses as long as the sensor was primitive.
Hi Lou, yes this sounds logical.

As far as we found out in this group, in all the industrial high-end scanners as the Israel-made Creo (finally Kodak) Eversmart Supreme A3 Scanners from 2003 (5600 ppi optical resolution) and also in the Fuji Lanovia C-550 -- there ALL were the same type of Rodenstock lenses:

Scitex S-2 and Scitex S-3 series (in Creo Scanners) or the Rodenstock Magnagon 75 (in the Fuji Lanovia - which I disassembled)

and there is an unbranded lens in the Japanese SCREEN Cezanne Highend-Scanner

so in the golden era of highend-scanning this was the best optics for that
So I still assume, not the glass was the limiting factor, but its only a guess.

All the best:
Christian

(edited: to be more precise,which lens in which scanner)
Last edited by typestar on Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

Christian, in the case of the Scitex scanners, I think the sensor technology (only 35mm long) may have been the limiting factor for the scanning of medium- and large-format film, and for these tasks, the lenses (89mm and 67mm respectively) were not limiting, since they were used for major reduction rather than at 1:1. However for scanning 35mm film, these same Scitex scanners used lenses (110mm) that were well-matchedto the sensor. The Scitex 110mm is really good.

I think the Nikon 14-element scanner lens is a big optical step up from these in one respect: I think it has a much larger image circle on the sensor side than the Scitex or 7-element Nikon lenses. I may be mis-remembering that, but I think that's right.

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

typestar wrote: can you already report on the power your Coolscan III lens, compared to others... ?

According to the Nikon specs its a 6 lenses in 4 groups lens.
Despite the fact that is has (officially) no ED lens included (?) -
I believe the most straitening part on the older Nikons was not the lens itself but the development / resolution capability of the sensor and the software
Sorry Christian, the LS-30 deal fell through. Seller canceled auction after he discovered how expensive it was going to be to ship it. However, I did put in an offer which was accepted on another LS-30, so now I just need to wait. I will do a quick report on the physical aspects of the lens, but not sure I will be able to test it effectively if its FL is too short.
typestar wrote:Scitex S-2 and Scitex S-3 series or the Rodenstock Magnagon 75
an unbranded lens in the Japanese SCREEN Cezanne Highend-Scanner.
Are you sure of the "Magnagon" being used in the Scitex? I see some Rodagons on eBay being sold as Magnagons for some reason.
Lou Jost wrote:I think the Nikon 14-element scanner lens is a big optical step up from these in one respect: I think it has a much larger image circle on the sensor side than the Scitex or 7-element Nikon lenses. I may be mis-remembering that, but I think that's right.
The 14-element lens from the 8000/9000 scanners is indeed wonderful. At some point I plan to compare it against the 105PN, but I may not be able to do the test justice with APS-C camera. I can say the coverage is at least 58mm, since that is the length of the line sensor in the 8000.

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Post by Lou Jost »

Ray, thanks for confirming that the sensor of the Coolscan 8000/9000 is as long as the short dimension of a medium-format film.

I've posted rough tests of that lens vs my PN105A, and it was equally apochromatic but not quite as sharp. I did not compare image circles. I think the scanner lens might win there.

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

Lou Jost wrote:Ray, thanks for confirming that the sensor of the Coolscan 8000/9000 is as long as the short dimension of a medium-format film.

I've posted rough tests of that lens vs my PN105A, and it was equally apochromatic but not quite as sharp. I did not compare image circles. I think the scanner lens might win there.
The 105PN is rated up to 62mm image circle, so they may have similar coverage.

The 8000ED lens is bigger than the 105PN, which is interesting. Similar number of elements and groups. I should take some comparison pics vs the 105PN with its casing removed.

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

ray_parkhurst wrote:
Lou Jost wrote:Ray, thanks for confirming that the sensor of the Coolscan 8000/9000 is as long as the short dimension of a medium-format film.

I've posted rough tests of that lens vs my PN105A, and it was equally apochromatic but not quite as sharp. I did not compare image circles. I think the scanner lens might win there.
The 105PN is rated up to 62mm image circle, so they may have similar coverage.

The 8000ED lens is bigger than the 105PN, which is interesting. Similar number of elements and groups. I should take some comparison pics vs the 105PN with its casing removed.
Ray, it would be interesting to have the two lenses X-ray'd. PN105 and the SN14 element.

Thats possible right? Do we know anyone :D

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

RobertOToole wrote:
ray_parkhurst wrote:
Lou Jost wrote:Ray, thanks for confirming that the sensor of the Coolscan 8000/9000 is as long as the short dimension of a medium-format film.

I've posted rough tests of that lens vs my PN105A, and it was equally apochromatic but not quite as sharp. I did not compare image circles. I think the scanner lens might win there.
The 105PN is rated up to 62mm image circle, so they may have similar coverage.

The 8000ED lens is bigger than the 105PN, which is interesting. Similar number of elements and groups. I should take some comparison pics vs the 105PN with its casing removed.
Ray, it would be interesting to have the two lenses X-ray'd. PN105 and the SN14 element.

Thats possible right? Do we know anyone :D
Not really possible. The metal case will shield the internals so the lenses will look like big blobs.

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

ray_parkhurst wrote:
RobertOToole wrote:
ray_parkhurst wrote:
Lou Jost wrote:Ray, thanks for confirming that the sensor of the Coolscan 8000/9000 is as long as the short dimension of a medium-format film.

I've posted rough tests of that lens vs my PN105A, and it was equally apochromatic but not quite as sharp. I did not compare image circles. I think the scanner lens might win there.
The 105PN is rated up to 62mm image circle, so they may have similar coverage.

The 8000ED lens is bigger than the 105PN, which is interesting. Similar number of elements and groups. I should take some comparison pics vs the 105PN with its casing removed.
Ray, it would be interesting to have the two lenses X-ray'd. PN105 and the SN14 element.

Thats possible right? Do we know anyone :D
Not really possible. The metal case will shield the internals so the lenses will look like big blobs.


I have seen optics x-ray'd before really..Thanks to google I found them.

Sorry. Referenced work removed due to copyright rules of the forum.
Last edited by RobertOToole on Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

typestar
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Lenses in Film- and legacy Highend-Scanners

Post by typestar »

ray_parkhurst wrote: Sorry Christian, the LS-30 deal fell through. ...However .. an offer was accepted on another LS-30, so now I just need to wait. I will do a quick report on the physical aspects of the lens, but not sure I will be able to test it effectively if its FL is too short.
typestar wrote:Scitex S-2 and Scitex S-3 series or the Rodenstock Magnagon 75
an unbranded lens in the Japanese SCREEN Cezanne Highend-Scanner.
Are you sure of the "Magnagon" being used in the Scitex? I see some Rodagons on eBay being sold as Magnagons for some reason.
Dear Ray, great to see, that you want to report to us!

About the Magnagon: I edited my posting, as I was not precise enough.
The Scitex- lenses are/were in the Scitex/Creo (later: Kodak) highend-scanners.
I caught 2 Fujifilm Lanovia C550 Scanners (each 110 Kilogram) inside there was „just“ a single Rodenstock Magnagon with the red filter, fixed aperture
(and it is CRAZY work of much ours to disassemble this super heavy Scanners !)

About other highres-scanners: There still is another scanner of interest: Screen Cézanne Elite FT-S5500 (specified for optical 5300 ppi) – the single lens inside is NOT a Rodenstock, and it is NOT labeled , so it seems a very special design… it has also a red filter – removable… -- unfortunately: this scanners are sold for high prices still… I could catch one --- and I think it is worth to look at that scanner.

A nice overview with interesting test- results about highend-scanners (from 1999!) is still online. I find it interesting:

https://www.kar.fi/Skannaus/pixelperfec ... _nro11.pdf


According to this, the SCREEN Cézanne wins in sharpness and colour fidelity with the sharpest pictorial results -- (whether this was the lens or the sensor/chip/software -- we do not know) -- :

"The Cézanne’s ... interpolated result is even better, with lines visible at 120 lp/mm— beyond the manufacturer’s claimed resolution. This is surprising, and it differs from the results with the other scanners"

The scan professionals in https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/ report also the high-res output of this Screen Cézanne scanner.


All the best to all hunters here... ;-)

christian
Last edited by typestar on Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:05 am, edited 3 times in total.

typestar
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Post by typestar »

Lou Jost wrote:Christian, in the case of the Scitex scanners... for scanning 35mm film, these same Scitex scanners used lenses (110mm) that were well-matchedto the sensor. The Scitex 110mm is really good.
Dear Lou, thankyou for pointing to this!

Christian

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

RobertOToole wrote:This is the guy:

http://www.kentkrugh.com/

Hasselblad 500CM:
Those are beautiful!

I guess I should have qualified my statement a bit more...the SN and PN lens mechanics are milled out of solid steel (I believe), and are very thick. Not designed to be lightweight for handheld use like Mr Krugh's subjects, so are tough to image. But I suppose if you really crank up the power you can see through most anything.

ray_parkhurst
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Re: Lenses in Film- and legacy Highend-Scanners

Post by ray_parkhurst »

typestar wrote:
Dear Ray, great to see, that you want to report to us!

About the Magnagon: I edited my posting, as I was not precise enough.
The Scitex- lenses are/were in the the Scitex/Creo (later: Kodak) highend-scanners.
I caught 2 Fujifilm Lanovia C550 Scanners (each 110 Kilogram) inside there was „just“ a single Rodenstock Magnagon with the red filter, fixed aperture
(and it is CRAZY work of much ours to disassemble this super heavy Scanners !)

About other highres-scanners: There still is another scanner of interest: Screen Cezanne Elite FT-S5500 (specified for optical 5300 ppi) – the single lens inside is NOT a Rodenstock, and it is NOT labeled , so it seems a very special design…
it has also a red filter – removable… -- unfortunately: this scanners are sold for high prices still… but I think it is worth to look at that…

A nice overview with interesting test- results about highend-scanners (from 1999!) is still online. I find it interesting:

https://www.kar.fi/Skannaus/pixelperfec ... _nro11.pdf


According to this, the SCREEN Cezanne wins in sharpness and colour fidelity with the sharpest pictorial results -- (whether this was the lens or the sensor/chip/software -- we do not know) --
That's a great article on high end scanners!

It's interesting the Scitex Eversmart ranked so highly. It has a single Rodenstock LFOV lens, which is f5.6. Scanners from this era must have fairly wide sensor pitch in order to not be overly constrained by diffraction. Today we are working with tighter pixel pitches and thus have expectation of lenses with larger apertures. Would the LFOV win contests today? It certainly won in my 100mm shootout, though I did not include the 105PN. The 110mm S2 and S3 lenses were also in the top ranks, as was the 86mm Tomioka E36C.

I see a "real" Magnagon for sale today on eBay Spain:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rodenstock-Mag ... :rk:2:pf:0

Quite a beautiful lens, but very different from the Magnagon I own, which has variable aperture. I bought mine from a seller in Israel, and actually bought two of them. One arrived with a broken aperture, and I could not figure out how to fix it without damaging it, so it is now in the hands of another forum member here. Hope he's able to do something with it.

typestar
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Post by typestar »

Hi Ray,

great, that you find the article interesting

I also offer the "real" Magnagon 5.6 / 75 mm, with fixed aperture (same as the ebay-offer in spain) I offer here for a good price for the highly appreciated members. The red filter is removable, of course...

Best wishes to all of you,

Christian
Last edited by typestar on Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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