Thinking of switching from Nikon DX to FX (Full Frame)

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alligator
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Thinking of switching from Nikon DX to FX (Full Frame)

Post by alligator »

I have been using Nikon DX cameras (currently a D7200) for my micro work for several years now, but am thinking of switching to Nikon FX (full frame). I use Mitutoyo objectives (2x, 5x, 10x, and 20x) with a 200mm tube lens.

I have toyed around a bit with my new full frame D850 and the 5x and up Mitutoyo objectives seem to work with good coverage with the 200mm tube lens, but the 2x does not cover the full frame of the FX camera.

So I have 2 questions:
1) How do people with full frame cameras shoot at 2x?
2) Would my 5x Mitty give full coverage of the FX frame if I use a Raynox 250? I believe the focal length of that lens is about 125mm so the magnification should be about 3.1x.

Any help appreciated.

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

I would encourage you to stop thinking of magnification and start thinking in terms of FOV. If you are happy with the 2x image on the DX sensor when using a 200mm tube lens, then you will project THE EXACT SAME IMAGE on your FF sensor using a good 300mm tube lens.

alligator
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Location: United States

Post by alligator »

Thank you for the reply. I have a 300mm Nikon ED AF F:4 lens so I will give it a try. I will need to search Amazon and/or Ebay to find the equipment to mount the Mitty objectives to the front of the lens, but that should be fairly simple and inexpensive.

Lou Jost wrote:I would encourage you to stop thinking of magnification and start thinking in terms of FOV. If you are happy with the 2x image on the DX sensor when using a 200mm tube lens, then you will project THE EXACT SAME IMAGE on your FF sensor using a good 300mm tube lens.

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

I have the D850 and Mitty's as well, although I got rid of the 2X because it was not up to the other Mitty (5,10,20X) IQ.

To cover the range around 2X on FF I've settled on the old Nikon PN105mm F2.8 for 1~1.7X with TC1.4 & 1.7, old Canon Macro Bellows 35mm F2.8 for 1.6~4X and recently (when I get the adapter today hopefully) the DImage 5400 for a similar range as the Canon. The Mitty 5X can be pushed down to ~3X with the Raynox 250 (125mm) or other lenses (see Robert's recent review on tube lenses) with good results, but this is for smaller sensors.

Curious about your total setup with the D850, do you use the totally silent mode for stacking with your D850?

Hope this helps,

Best,

Mike
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

mawyatt
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Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:54 pm
Location: Clearwater, Florida

Post by mawyatt »

alligator wrote:Thank you for the reply. I have a 300mm Nikon ED AF F:4 lens so I will give it a try. I will need to search Amazon and/or Ebay to find the equipment to mount the Mitty objectives to the front of the lens, but that should be fairly simple and inexpensive.

Lou Jost wrote:I would encourage you to stop thinking of magnification and start thinking in terms of FOV. If you are happy with the 2x image on the DX sensor when using a 200mm tube lens, then you will project THE EXACT SAME IMAGE on your FF sensor using a good 300mm tube lens.
If this is a 77mm thread like the Nikon 70-200 F2.8 VR1, I used a 77mm to 52mm adapter from eBay then the standard 52mm to Mitutoyo adapter.

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

alligator
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:43 pm
Location: United States

Post by alligator »

Thank you for the information. I have only played around a bit using the D850 for micro work at this point, and have not "officially" made the change from DX yet. I have not used the totally silent mode for stacking yet but will try it out. I have tried the built in stacking program at 1:1 (with the micro nikkor 105 mm s lens), and it is quite amazing. I do use the 2x Mitty currently (with the DX setup) but have never been 100% happy with it so this might be the time to make a change for 2x.

Do you find that you have gone over to the full frame camera for all of your work, or does the DX still have a place in it?
mawyatt wrote:I have the D850 and Mitty's as well, although I got rid of the 2X because it was not up to the other Mitty (5,10,20X) IQ.

To cover the range around 2X on FF I've settled on the old Nikon PN105mm F2.8 for 1~1.7X with TC1.4 & 1.7, old Canon Macro Bellows 35mm F2.8 for 1.6~4X and recently (when I get the adapter today hopefully) the DImage 5400 for a similar range as the Canon. The Mitty 5X can be pushed down to ~3X with the Raynox 250 (125mm) or other lenses (see Robert's recent review on tube lenses) with good results, but this is for smaller sensors.

Curious about your total setup with the D850, do you use the totally silent mode for stacking with your D850?

Hope this helps,

Best,

Mike

alligator
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:43 pm
Location: United States

Post by alligator »

My 300mm lens has an 82mm filter thread but I have already found the items I need to mount a Mitutoyo objective to it, and have ordered them.



mawyatt wrote:
alligator wrote:Thank you for the reply. I have a 300mm Nikon ED AF F:4 lens so I will give it a try. I will need to search Amazon and/or Ebay to find the equipment to mount the Mitty objectives to the front of the lens, but that should be fairly simple and inexpensive.

Lou Jost wrote:I would encourage you to stop thinking of magnification and start thinking in terms of FOV. If you are happy with the 2x image on the DX sensor when using a 200mm tube lens, then you will project THE EXACT SAME IMAGE on your FF sensor using a good 300mm tube lens.
If this is a 77mm thread like the Nikon 70-200 F2.8 VR1, I used a 77mm to 52mm adapter from eBay then the standard 52mm to Mitutoyo adapter.

Best,

mawyatt
Posts: 2492
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:54 pm
Location: Clearwater, Florida

Post by mawyatt »

alligator wrote:Thank you for the information. I have only played around a bit using the D850 for micro work at this point, and have not "officially" made the change from DX yet. I have not used the totally silent mode for stacking yet but will try it out. I have tried the built in stacking program at 1:1 (with the micro nikkor 105 mm s lens), and it is quite amazing. I do use the 2x Mitty currently (with the DX setup) but have never been 100% happy with it so this might be the time to make a change for 2x.

Do you find that you have gone over to the full frame camera for all of your work, or does the DX still have a place in it?
mawyatt wrote:I have the D850 and Mitty's as well, although I got rid of the 2X because it was not up to the other Mitty (5,10,20X) IQ.

To cover the range around 2X on FF I've settled on the old Nikon PN105mm F2.8 for 1~1.7X with TC1.4 & 1.7, old Canon Macro Bellows 35mm F2.8 for 1.6~4X and recently (when I get the adapter today hopefully) the DImage 5400 for a similar range as the Canon. The Mitty 5X can be pushed down to ~3X with the Raynox 250 (125mm) or other lenses (see Robert's recent review on tube lenses) with good results, but this is for smaller sensors.

Curious about your total setup with the D850, do you use the totally silent mode for stacking with your D850?

Hope this helps,

Best,

Mike
I use both DX and FX, have a D500 for DX and D800, 800E and D850 for FX. My usual subjects are not insects, nor flowers, but silicon (and InP) chips. Ones that I've designed, or been a part of and for others. Started this back in ~2003 including full silicon wafers (8") for our presentations and customers. Recently I've purchased old 5 & 6" wafers (today most are 12") off eBay to use just for fun. To me these are like "works of art" and fun to look at in detail, others like Robert have adopted these old wafers as precision test targets for lens evaluations.

My 1st focus stacking rig was an early Stackshot, then I got the Wemacro, then MJKZZ and now I mostly use the surplus THK KR20 rails off eBay, modified for macro use. The Stackshot, Wemacro and MJKZZ controllers can all be used interchangeably with their focus rails and the KR20 the proper adapter cable.

Presently I use the Wemacro Vertical Stand (and Horizontal option), but also have a Thor Labs based horizontal setup from my early days which I'm adding a vertical capability to. The Thor Labs setup is mostly for precision work. For lighting I evolved from many types of speedlights to various versions of studio strobes, and mostly use the Adorama Studio R2 manual system now.

Everyone has their preferred camera/lens and setups, mine is just a long (and expensive) evolution of what works for me and the subjects I normally use.

Hope this helps,

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

alligator
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:43 pm
Location: United States

Post by alligator »

Interesting... My work is mostly photographing micro mineral crystals. My set up is similar to Chris S's "Bratcam", which is documented on this site, and my 200mm tube lens is an exact clone of his, and built according to the details he provided on here. I have been pretty satisfied with it for the last several years and have not changed much during that time, but now I am interested in perhaps changing to full frame and perhaps changing the way I photograph at 2x.




mawyatt wrote:
alligator wrote:Thank you for the information. I have only played around a bit using the D850 for micro work at this point, and have not "officially" made the change from DX yet. I have not used the totally silent mode for stacking yet but will try it out. I have tried the built in stacking program at 1:1 (with the micro nikkor 105 mm s lens), and it is quite amazing. I do use the 2x Mitty currently (with the DX setup) but have never been 100% happy with it so this might be the time to make a change for 2x.

Do you find that you have gone over to the full frame camera for all of your work, or does the DX still have a place in it?
mawyatt wrote:I have the D850 and Mitty's as well, although I got rid of the 2X because it was not up to the other Mitty (5,10,20X) IQ.

To cover the range around 2X on FF I've settled on the old Nikon PN105mm F2.8 for 1~1.7X with TC1.4 & 1.7, old Canon Macro Bellows 35mm F2.8 for 1.6~4X and recently (when I get the adapter today hopefully) the DImage 5400 for a similar range as the Canon. The Mitty 5X can be pushed down to ~3X with the Raynox 250 (125mm) or other lenses (see Robert's recent review on tube lenses) with good results, but this is for smaller sensors.

Curious about your total setup with the D850, do you use the totally silent mode for stacking with your D850?

Hope this helps,

Best,

Mike
I use both DX and FX, have a D500 for DX and D800, 800E and D850 for FX. My usual subjects are not insects, nor flowers, but silicon (and InP) chips. Ones that I've designed, or been a part of and for others. Started this back in ~2003 including full silicon wafers (8") for our presentations and customers. Recently I've purchased old 5 & 6" wafers (today most are 12") off eBay to use just for fun. To me these are like "works of art" and fun to look at in detail, others like Robert have adopted these old wafers as precision test targets for lens evaluations.

My 1st focus stacking rig was an early Stackshot, then I got the Wemacro, then MJKZZ and now I mostly use the surplus THK KR20 rails off eBay, modified for macro use. The Stackshot, Wemacro and MJKZZ controllers can all be used interchangeably with their focus rails and the KR20 the proper adapter cable.

Presently I use the Wemacro Vertical Stand (and Horizontal option), but also have a Thor Labs based horizontal setup from my early days which I'm adding a vertical capability to. The Thor Labs setup is mostly for precision work. For lighting I evolved from many types of speedlights to various versions of studio strobes, and mostly use the Adorama Studio R2 manual system now.

Everyone has their preferred camera/lens and setups, mine is just a long (and expensive) evolution of what works for me and the subjects I normally use.

Hope this helps,

Best,

mawyatt
Posts: 2492
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:54 pm
Location: Clearwater, Florida

Post by mawyatt »

alligator wrote:Interesting... My work is mostly photographing micro mineral crystals. My set up is similar to Chris S's "Bratcam", which is documented on this site, and my 200mm tube lens is an exact clone of his, and built according to the details he provided on here. I have been pretty satisfied with it for the last several years and have not changed much during that time, but now I am interested in perhaps changing to full frame and perhaps changing the way I photograph at 2x.




mawyatt wrote:
alligator wrote:Thank you for the information. I have only played around a bit using the D850 for micro work at this point, and have not "officially" made the change from DX yet. I have not used the totally silent mode for stacking yet but will try it out. I have tried the built in stacking program at 1:1 (with the micro nikkor 105 mm s lens), and it is quite amazing. I do use the 2x Mitty currently (with the DX setup) but have never been 100% happy with it so this might be the time to make a change for 2x.

Do you find that you have gone over to the full frame camera for all of your work, or does the DX still have a place in it?
mawyatt wrote:I have the D850 and Mitty's as well, although I got rid of the 2X because it was not up to the other Mitty (5,10,20X) IQ.

To cover the range around 2X on FF I've settled on the old Nikon PN105mm F2.8 for 1~1.7X with TC1.4 & 1.7, old Canon Macro Bellows 35mm F2.8 for 1.6~4X and recently (when I get the adapter today hopefully) the DImage 5400 for a similar range as the Canon. The Mitty 5X can be pushed down to ~3X with the Raynox 250 (125mm) or other lenses (see Robert's recent review on tube lenses) with good results, but this is for smaller sensors.

Curious about your total setup with the D850, do you use the totally silent mode for stacking with your D850?

Hope this helps,

Best,

Mike
I use both DX and FX, have a D500 for DX and D800, 800E and D850 for FX. My usual subjects are not insects, nor flowers, but silicon (and InP) chips. Ones that I've designed, or been a part of and for others. Started this back in ~2003 including full silicon wafers (8") for our presentations and customers. Recently I've purchased old 5 & 6" wafers (today most are 12") off eBay to use just for fun. To me these are like "works of art" and fun to look at in detail, others like Robert have adopted these old wafers as precision test targets for lens evaluations.

My 1st focus stacking rig was an early Stackshot, then I got the Wemacro, then MJKZZ and now I mostly use the surplus THK KR20 rails off eBay, modified for macro use. The Stackshot, Wemacro and MJKZZ controllers can all be used interchangeably with their focus rails and the KR20 the proper adapter cable.

Presently I use the Wemacro Vertical Stand (and Horizontal option), but also have a Thor Labs based horizontal setup from my early days which I'm adding a vertical capability to. The Thor Labs setup is mostly for precision work. For lighting I evolved from many types of speedlights to various versions of studio strobes, and mostly use the Adorama Studio R2 manual system now.

Everyone has their preferred camera/lens and setups, mine is just a long (and expensive) evolution of what works for me and the subjects I normally use.

Hope this helps,

Best,
Yes, Chris's Bratcam is a very nice setup, really like the way he's got the subject positioning! I don't have as many adjustments as he has, I'm using a modified surplus Alessi probe positioner (used in semiconductor chip testing). It only has XYZ and I plan to add Rotational, Pitch and Yaw soon, also need to copy his laser pointer sometime, that's a very handy gadget indeed!!


Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

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Last edited by RobertOToole on Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

I use multiple formats; each has its advantages and disadvantages. Much depends on your lenses. If your lenses are finite lenses optimized for particular magnifications, then the size of their image circle determines the upper limit of your sensor size; to get smaller FOV with these, I switch to smaller denser sensors.

Infinity-corrected optics lead to a completely different choice of sensors. In this case a given objective at a given FOV can fill any sensor regardless of size, with exactly the same resolution and depth of field, just by choosing the right tube lens. In this case I prefer sensors with lots of pixels, on cameras that don't make vibrations. If you are shooting at 10x or under, I'd recommend a FF camera that has silent shutter and more pixels than APS cameras. For higher m those extra pixels don't help much so an APS sensor with fewer pixels makes sense.

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

Good points Lou.

Someone thinking of a new body also has to also consider pixel shift. Last time I pulled RAW files from DPreview from a pixel shift pentax and a D810, the 24MP APS-C Pentax had less pixels but better clarity in the fine details and zero Moire compared to the D810.

The Sony A7R3 in with pixel shift mode had fine details that were closer to Medium format.

Pixel shift can give us more options. I'm disappointed that the new Nikon and Canon MLC didn't bother to include it.

Robert

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

Pixel shift can give us more options. I'm disappointed that the new Nikon and Canon MLC didn't bother to include it.
I am also disappointed about that. Pixel shift is amazing though time-consuming. I love it. The MFT 8x pixel-shift and the FF Pentax/Sony 4x pixel-shifts are close to medium format in resolution, as you said, and both give similar resolutions. My Atlas moth pictures posted here use FF pixel shift:
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... highlight=

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

The Nikon Z6 and Z7 have in camera body image stabilization which should allow a pixel shift mode with a firmware update, if Nikon ever decided to do such :roll:

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

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