Help needed for flashgun positioning

[nielsgeode]

For my horizontal setup, I'd like to have something to accurately position my two (Canon 600EX) flashguns. First, I tried using the Manfrotto heavy-duty flex-arm, but they are not 'heavy' enough. The flashes slowly drop to the ground.

Next, I tried two "Chinese flex-arms" from Ebay, something like Ebay number 200953985434, (see photos of my setup). You can fix them in any position using the screw on the arm. It works quite nice, but the quality is poor and I don't think these two will last long.

So I am considering to purchase two Manfrotto magic arm's 143N. They look well-built and should easily hold a (heavy) fleshgun, but they are relatively expensive ($100) and quite long (ca. 50 cm) for my setup.

So, I am looking for tips / ideas / suggestions for a good quality, flexible and compact 'system' to accurately position my two Canon Speedlites.

This is how it looks at the moment (with one of the two strobes removed):




Thanks!
Niels

[enricosavazzi]

Manfrotto magic arms are large, heavy and relatively nasty. Their locking mechanism tends to switch abruptly between two states - rigidly locked and "floppy", but can hold up a heavy flash unit and are quite precise. There are actually two types, one locked with a lever and another locked with a circular knob. The latter works better for me because friction can be somewhat adjusted. I had one of these arms hold up without trouble a Bowens Gemini 500. The weak point of these arms is the baby stud at either end. If you mount this stud horizontally, the off-center weight of the arm will make it rotate in its socket, no matter how hard the socket screw is tightened. I always make a point of mounting the end studs vertical (either downward or up).

Manfrotto also makes hydrostatic mini arms of two or three (slightly) different lengths. These are precision made although a bit expensive, and friction can be adjusted gradually (but there is no way to independently adjust the friction of the central "elbow" and the two end ball sockets). I have a few of these and use them for the same purpose you are investigating. They have standard tripod screws at either end, and therefore you should only mount them with these screws oriented vertically.

Most of the Chinese arms are actually repurposed indicator holders designed to hold calipers in a mechanical shop. They were not originally designed as photographic accessories. I tried some of these indicator holders, without much success - you have to tighten them very hard to hold up any significant weight.

[Chris S.]

Niels,

While you've likely seen it, I'll remind you of the Bratcam's magnetic lighting stage thread. In the three years I've been using this setup, it's served really well. If I were to change anything, it would be to make the isolated lighting skirt a bit larger, and of a slightly thicker steel. While these improvements would be useful, they would be small.

At the heart of this lighting rig are Noga stands purchased from Travers Tool Company. These Noga stands, while not inexpensive, are a joy to use, and seem to hold their value on the second-hand market. I use these stands nearly every day, and am always pleased. I'm reminded of the old saying, "A cheap tool pains you at every use; a good tool pains you only once, at purchase." I'm very, very glad to be working with these, and have purchased several more Noga stands since the post. You may, like me, find that you suddenly imagine where you want a light, subject, background, light modifier or camera to be; with the Noga's and a few twists of your wrists, the imagined situation suddenly exists. Heavenly!

Having a magnetic lighting base that is mechanically isolated from the camera/subject base has been very helpful. The isolation has allowed me to try numerous lighting regimes without disturbing carefully-positioned subjects.

Cheers,

--Chris

[nielsgeode]

Hi Chris,

Thanx a lot for you post. Probably, I have missed your thread . The Magnetic base's look really nice. Unfortunately, I haven't seen these specific bases here in the Netherlands (and neither can I find them on the internet in Europe).

I will contact the workshop of my university because I know they are also using these kinds of magnetic bases for some equipment. Maybe they know how and where to get these things here in the Neterlands.

If this is difficult, do you have any other ideas on how and where to get these things?

Thanx!
Niels

[Chris S.]

Niels, I bought my Noga magnetic bases and articulating arms from Travers Tool Company, located in New York, USA. I called them just now to confirm that they will ship these items to The Netherlands; yes, they will. If they did not, you could have them shipped to me in Ohio, USA, and I could forward them to you.

However, since Noga stands are made in Israel, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a more direct route to you than through a U.S. vendor.

Most of the Chinese arms are actually repurposed indicator holders designed to hold calipers in a mechanical shop. They were not originally designed as photographic accessories. I tried some of these indicator holders, without much success - you have to tighten them very hard to hold up any significant weight.

Enrico's experience is typical for budget-priced articulating arms. But to be clear, the problem seems to be the build quality, rather than the arms' originally intended purpose. My Noga stands were also originally configured for holding gauges in a machine shop. But they are very well made and do not require heavy tightening. They hold enough weight for my purposes--I sometimes put an Alien Bees B1600 monolight on a "Big Boy" Noga stand, and it handles it with ease. The Noga products are also sold in configurations specific to photographic or cinematic use, but--at least at the time of my purchases--buying the arms and bases in a machine shop configuration was cheaper.

By the way, if you want to use magnetic bases without a metal "lighting skirt" to clamp them to, steel weights of the type used by body builders also work well. They are stable, yet easy to move to adjust the placement of lights.

Cheers,

--Chris

[nielsgeode]

Thanx for your help Chris!

It looks like these Noga articulating arms are exactly what I need. There is a Noga dealer in my city who can order these things, but does not have them on stock. From the Noga distributer in the Netherlands, I received a PDF with all there products.

However, to me it is totally unclear what you get when you order these things. For instance, the big boy, do you get what is on the photo or is this only the magnetic base without the articulating arm (or the other way around)?

I'm confused

Would this auction be for all the items that you see on the photo?

[Chris S.]

These Noga product names are indeed somewhat confusing.

For instance, the big boy, do you get what is on the photo or is this only the magnetic base without the articulating arm (or the other way around)?

Yes, you get everything that is in the photo, including the magnetic base, articulating arm, and the small gauge clamp at the top (which you will probably remove for your application, as I did for mine).

Would this auction be for all the items that you see on the photo?

As in the earlier example, you would get everything that is in the photo. (And I notice that the vendor is Travers Tool Company.)

A clue is that both offerings give measurements for top arm and bottom arm, as well as a mention of the magnetic base.

I doubt you will ever regret buying these items. If you're like me, the problem will be that you keep wanting more of them.

Cheers, Niels!

--Chris

[nielsgeode]

These Noga product names are indeed somewhat confusing.

For instance, the big boy, do you get what is on the photo or is this only the magnetic base without the articulating arm (or the other way around)?

Yes, you get everything that is in the photo, including the magnetic base, articulating arm, and the small gauge clamp at the top (which you will probably remove for your application, as I did for mine).

Would this auction be for all the items that you see on the photo?

As in the earlier example, you would get everything that is in the photo. (And I notice that the vendor is Travers Tool Company.)

A clue is that both offerings give measurements for top arm and bottom arm, as well as a mention of the magnetic base.

I doubt you will ever regret buying these items. If you're like me, the problem will be that you keep wanting more of them.

Cheers, Niels!

--Chris

Hi Chris,

I purchased one big boy and one smaller Noga and I like them *a lot*. Thanx for the advice!

As you can see on my photos, I am still using a wooden base plate for my setup. In the future, I will switch to steel, but for the time being I purchased two 2.5mm thick steel plates which I have screw-mounted on my wooden base. I have painted these pieces of steel completely black "rustoleum" to prevent corrosion.

Unfortunately, the paint is coming of when you attach / detach the magnetic base. Obviously, I don't like this and I would like to have some sort of protection which is more durable. Do you have any suggestions?

[Chris S.]

Hi Niels,

Glad the Noga's are working so well for you! Sorry you're having trouble with the paint.

Sometimes I use steel bases other than the "lighting stage" around the Bratcam. My choice, in these cases, is steel weights intended for athletic weight training on barbells. Their finish seems to be very durable, and a quick check just now shows that at least some of them have "baked enamel paint." I choose weights that are heavy enough not to need to be bolted down, which makes them easy to rearrange. I typically grab a 10-pound plate for the Big Boy (especially if I'm mounting a large monolight on it), but a five-pound plate will often work; a 2.5 pound plate works well for the smaller stands holding speedlights.

The finish on the Bratcam's lighting skirt is professional powdercoating, which is, in my experience much more durable than paint (although it can still be scratched if I drag the Noga magnetic bases across them. These scratches have been superficial, and I certainly don't get any removal of the coating from simply attaching and detaching the magnets. The prices I've paid for the service have been very reasonable--$10-20 for each of my parts. I do tell the powercoating company that it's OK to delay my job until they happen to be doing flat black; they often run hundreds of parts for a client, and no way to I want them to do a special run for my one or two parts at a time.

The ease with which your paint is coming off seems a bit excessive. I take that you got the metal "squeaky clean," possibly with a solvent such as acetone, before applying the paint? And that you first put down a coat of metal primer? Back before I started using professional powdercoating, I had my fabricator, Don Wilson, make a metal frame to go on top of the truck for long camping trips in the desert. Today, I'd take it straight from Don's shop to the powdercoating facility. But back then, I cleaned it, primed it, and painted it. After more than a decade of hard use, the paint is still in pretty good shape.

Good luck!

--Chris

[Edward Ruden]

I'd look for something with a locking goose neck support. These consist of a series of balls and sockets (not the more common spiral wound metal type). They have a lever or knob at the base that, once the goose neck is shaped how you want it, tightens a bezel that locks the shape in place. They are surprisingly rigid once locked.

Here are some to consider. I can't vouch for them so try to find one in a store somewhere you can play with:

Mic mount (Looks stout, but I don't see how this locks, so beware).
Car monitor mount (See the little locking knob)
Clamping Dial indicator (Extra stuff included, but your flash gun's not going anywhere when this is locked)

[Mr.Stone]

In preparation for my trip to Malawi, i went and got one of these "magic arm" things that you are using to hold your flash here, the 28 cm one. I thought it would be handy in the sense that i could attach it to the bottom of my camera, where the tripod mount would go, then use a ttl cable and attach my flash to the other end. I would then have myself a portable and flexible light source and that would allow me freedom of movement and comfort while out there shooting bugs at 2-3x magnification in their natural environment.
I must have been high, ill or just plainly had macro fever or something to think this....

Firstly when i opened the package, the product looked slightly different then the pictures on the internet and although i can mount all the things as i explained above, it still comes loose after a couple of minutes of shooting and its cumbersome to have this thing on the camera and then a flash about the same size as yours on the front of the arm and then a diffuser on the front of the flash.
But by the looks of your setup, they seem to serve their purpose:) With my horizontal setup I use a single flash mounted on a tripod with a ball head and it works for 5-10x stacks.