Hollywood's digital movie cameras - useful for macro?

DQE · Post by **DQE** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:52 pm

I just watched an informative and enjoyable documentary ("Side by Side") on the in-progress demise of film-based movies and the features and benefits of the current crop of digital cameras. This movie is available on Netflix.

I then took a quick look at a recommended Hollywood-grade (and price!) digital movie camera. Here's a link:

http://www.panavision.com/content/genesis?l=1&c=1&p=109

Is there anything in these specs that might improve on the quality of macro still or video images that we can currently obtain from the best available DSLR cameras? I didn't see anything too interesting myself other than improvements that might be obtained with their RGB (non-Bayer) sensor pattern, and the option to make 12.4 megapixel (4K pixels wide, I think) digital movies. I notice that they only support 10 bits per pixel, which I believe is surpassed by the 14-bits per pixel DSLR cameras.

The only thing most of the interviewed movie people complained about was the limited dynamic range of digital movies (and probably stills).

In the documentary, the cinematographers seemed to be using the Canon 5Dxx and 7D cameras for low-budget or special purpose applications.

Craig Gerard · Post by **Craig Gerard** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:51 pm

Phil,

This is not a specific response to your question; but I do recall viewing that documentary when it was broadcast. It was very well produced, basically a statement of facts with no specific bias. The overall history of film is not really 'old' yet the documentary did leave me (and hopefully potential/future cinematographers) with a sense of respect and responsibility as we move further along the timeline and into the future.

It is an art and a science. Dynamic range is very important, so too the 'cinematic' look and feel and many other matters. Huge advances have been made in those areas over the last two decades by Arri, RED (to name but two) and now the affordable (price of a DSLR) Black Magic Cinema Camera (dubbed the 'Baby Alexa') which has 13 stops of dynamic range...and is bundled with industry standard Davinci Resolve software. I can provide a link that demonstrates the benefit of such dynamic range and can also provide a link where the BMCC was compared to the 5DMII if you are interested.

Craig

DQE · Post by **DQE** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:08 pm

Thanks for the additional info and comments.

Are there any other major competitors to this camera and the other models the company sells?

The Genesis model I cited only provides 10 bits per color, which I believe means 10 stops of dynamic range. Is the larger number of stops you cite consistent with the 10 bits the Genesis web page cites?

I got the impression that their famous "Red" camera line is a smaller and lower performance (and cheaper) camera. They claim that their Genesis line is superior but that may be based on many considerations other than sheer image quality. Professional cinematographers have so many real world needs it's a bit hard to figure what of their needs apply to ordinary photographers..

I would appreciate a link to the 5DIII comparison/discussion info vs the professional digital video cameras.

Do you know of any quantitative measurements on the image noise characteristics of their sensors, especially compared to things like the 5DIII? Dpreview.com seems to do a good basic job for such comparisons, IMO, but I'm sure they don't tackle extreme high-end professional video cameras.

Craig Gerard · Post by **Craig Gerard** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:30 pm

I would appreciate a link to the 5DIII comparison/discussion info vs the professional digital video cameras.

http://vimeo.com/49875510 (Download the HD version)

http://vimeo.com/49445441

Craig

Tom Jones · Post by **Tom Jones** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:17 am

DQE,

Last month I was lucky enough to watch a presentation by Richard Weinberg of the USC School of Cinematic Arts. He detailed his video microscopy work with the 4K Red One and Red Epic cameras shooting through an Olympus BX-50. Pretty impressive stuff even though it was being shown to us at a lower resolution.

My gut reaction

is that the much higher 4K resolution standard for video (4096×2160 vs. 1920x1080), not to mention the increased dynamic range of the professional level 4K cameras will be a game changer at the high end. Unfortunately, at least for the time being, the $20,000+

Epic is way out of my league.

Here's a link to an older version of his talk at Adobe Max: http://tv.adobe.com/watch/max-2010-desi ... icroscope/

Tom

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:35 am

Tom Jones wrote:the much higher 4K resolution standard for video (4096×2160 vs. 1920x1080)

If anybody else is as confused as I am about exactly what "4K video" means, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution for discussion of several specs.

--Rik

DQE · Post by **DQE** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:29 pm

rjlittlefield wrote:
Tom Jones wrote:the much higher 4K resolution standard for video (4096×2160 vs. 1920x1080)
If anybody else is as confused as I am about exactly what "4K video" means, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution for discussion of several specs.

--Rik

Thanks for the link. Mostly by coincidence, the definition(s) for 4K were reasonably consistent with my ad-hoc understanding for a change.

I was taken aback by the even higher resolution sensor format from your linked Wikipedia page:

"8K UHD which is 7680 pixels × 4320 pixels (33.2 megapixels)"

I've also read that the consumer HDTV market is beginning to move to a 4K format. Since total megabytes per second streaming video data rate tracks with the square of the linear pixel number, these changes represent breathtaking increases in required video data rates. Or is it just another routine or predictable technology improvement?

I guess this stuff is related to Moore's Law(s) and "Future Shock". Perhaps this has now changed to "Present Shock", from a new book title, since it is happening at such a fast rate. It really is hard to stay connected with many aspects of technology changes.

I wonder if the movie industry will also use these hypothetical format changes to take one more crack at making DVDs and streaming movies more secure. I keep thinking about the 14-year-old Scandinavian teen who cracked the encryption algorithms for DVDs, making the whole movie business vulnerable to pirating, etc.

On a somewhat related note, I just bought a new Blu-Ray DVD of a "gotta see in hi-def" movie (the new Hobbit movie). My partner and I both reacted negatively to what seemed to be excessively sharpened fine detail and edges in this movie, viewed on our 55-inch HDTV. While there were no visible halos due to excessive sharpening, she and I both felt that the video seemed much too sharpened and was often unpleasant. I didn't have that reaction to other recent blu-ray DVD movies...

I was of course very impressed with the above linked vimeo.com image quality comparisons of the new professional video cameras with the 5Dxx. I would love to see a detailed analysis of all the basic factors that produced such a striking improvement.

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:01 pm

DQE wrote:I've also read that the consumer HDTV market is beginning to move to a 4K format. Since total megabytes per second streaming video data rate tracks with the square of the linear pixel number, these changes represent breathtaking increases in required video data rates. Or is it just another routine or predictable technology improvement?

The latter, I think. Video resolution is actually not growing very fast in comparison to other "Moore's Law" patterns that we're used to.

When US color TV was first introduced in 1953, the NTSC analog standard specified 483 visible scan lines with an aspect ratio of 4:3. Roughly speaking, this is where the early monitors with 640 x 480 pixels got their specs. At roughly 30 fps, this equates to 9.2 megapixels per second.

Fast-forward now to 2013. Tech specs for the Red One camera quote a maximum "project rate" of 29.97 fps at 5120x2700. That multiplies out to 414 megapixels per second.

Now, 414 is certainly much larger than 9.2, but it's taken a long time to get there. Over the span of 60 years, the average growth rate calculates out to be a whopping 6.55% per year. That's a doubling time of almost 11 years, versus the roughly 2 years that we're used to in media capacity and overall network bandwidth.

--Rik

DQE · Post by **DQE** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:52 am

Following the vimeo links in this thread, I came across this blog:

http://www.onerivermedia.com/blog/

A separate link to a pro cinematography rig photo is here:

http://www.onerivermedia.com/blog/wp-co ... 24x764.jpg

His lens collection is shown here:

http://www.onerivermedia.com/blog/wp-co ... 24x554.jpg

I thought macro and micro photographers were heavy on equipment, but we don't have much equipment at all compared to the professional video crowd!!

----------
An aside: A few years ago I attended a Canon-sponsored photography seminar by Art Morris, a highly regarded bird photographer. Canon sponsored a lens collector who literally owned one of every Canon lens in current production, plus many others, and he brought all of them to the seminar. We were encouraged to mount them on a DSLR and try them out for look and feel in the seminar room. That was quite an experience - I had never seen or handled some of the telephoto and extreme wide angle lenses. The lens owner apparently paid for part of his collecting by Canon's sponsorship.

Craig Gerard · Post by **Craig Gerard** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:08 pm

If you want something a bit more manageable here is some very recent news.

http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/product ... nemacamera

It shoots ProRes to SD card and a update for lossless compressed raw is in the pipeline for later in the year.

RRP: $995

Craig

Cactusdave · Post by **Cactusdave** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:26 am

That little 'Black Magic Lite' camera could be great for videomicroscopy. The original Black Magic Cinema Camera is available quite reasonably in the UK for by the day hire, and no doubt the smaller version will also become available in this way. Hire is potentially a good way to go for special projects and assessing potential, as long as the learning curve for the kit isn't too steep if you are initially unfamiliar with it.

Craig Gerard · Post by **Craig Gerard** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:04 am

Dave,

Some additional information from John Brawley. He usually gets his hands on Black Magic Design items prior to public release.
http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... e-orginal/

Craig

Craig Gerard · Post by **Craig Gerard** » Mon May 13, 2013 5:06 am

Some initial footage regarding the Black Magic Design Pocket Cinema Camera. The camera will ship in July.

This was shot using the ProRes codec but the Pocket camera will ship with serious Cinema DNG RAW capabilities and an active MFT mount.
http://johnbrawley.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... ur-pocket/ (Watch fullscreen)

.....................................

And some recent developments regarding Magic Lantern unlocking the RAW video capabilities of the 5D MIII (and potentially other models)
http://www.eoshd.com/content/10324/big- ... d-mark-iii (early days yet....proceed with some caution).

Craig