Canon 2x Extender vs Novoflex Bellows for Canon MP-E65mm

[Cunha]

I don´t know if there´s such topic here (I can´t find it) but if it exists please tell me.
What´s your opinion on a Canon 2x Extender vs Novoflex Bellows for a Canon MP-E65mm? Pros and Cons of users.
The products are:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Revi ... eview.aspx

VS

http://www.novoflex.com/en/products/mac ... astbal-ts/

Thanks you very much.
Regards.

[rjlittlefield]

I question whether either of those devices would make you happy.

By itself, the MP-E gives magnifications from 1X to 5X. At 5X, the widest aperture of f/2.8 becomes effectively f/16.8 due to the extra factor of (magnification+1). It is sharp throughout the range, but at 5X and f/16.8 it is starting to suffer from diffraction.

With the 2X extender, the MP-E's range becomes 2X to 10X, and at 10X the widest aperture is effectively f/33.6 (=16.8*2). This will be significantly less sharp than a 10X NA 0.25 microscope objective that costs less than $100. In fact on an APS-C sensor, the MP-E 65 at 5X is blown away by the 10X objective pushed down to 5X by using a 100 mm tube lens. See comparison images at http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=15876.

Using a bellows with the MP-E has the same problem with maximum aperture, and runs into the additional problem that diaphragm control on the MP-E requires electronic connection with the camera body. I don't see that function provided with the bellows that you've linked, although it can be provided by a different bellows, or Novoflex says that it can be added to their BALPRO by augmenting with their http://www.novoflex.com/en/products/mac ... eos-retro/.

Probably there are better combinations for whatever you're trying to do.

What is your goal?

--Rik

[Cunha]

Thanks for your opinion.
The x5 of the lens is nice. Would like to go beyond that.
Is it possible to "expand" the lens with one of those 10x NA 0,25 microscope objective you refer?

[Cunha]

"Nikon CFI 10X Plan Achromat on Canon 100 mm macro lens, giving 5X. This combo is much sharper than the MP-E 65"
from your link.

Some questions; please:
1.
Makes any sense to do the above with the Nikon CFI 10X Plan Achromat+MP-E 65mm? Or it´s not possible to attach microscope objectives to this lens? because I´ve it.

2.
For the Nikon CFI 10X Plan Achromat on Canon 100 mm macro lens; the x5 maximum is really the maximum of this combo?

3.
where to look for (to buy new or used?) the Nikon CFI 10X Plan Achromat?

4.
what is black ring to attach the Nikon CFI 10X Plan Achromat to lens bellow?
The name and where to buy it?

Sorry if this is too basic but i´m trying to learn with your help.
Thank you.

[rjlittlefield]

Is it possible to "expand" the lens with one of those 10x NA 0,25 microscope objective you refer?

The MP-E 65 does not work very well that way. But inexpensive telephotos can be very good; see for example http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... php?t=9664.

Alternatively, it turns out that the Raynox DCR-150 and DCR-250 lenses intended as closeup add-ons also make quite good and inexpensive tube lenses for use with infinity microscope objectives. See http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=18145 for some discussion. I'm currently doing some testing of those configurations myself and the results are coming out very nice.

--Rik

[Cunha]

I question whether either of those devices would make you happy.

By itself, the MP-E gives magnifications from 1X to 5X. At 5X, the widest aperture of f/2.8 becomes effectively f/16.8 due to the extra factor of (magnification+1). It is sharp throughout the range, but at 5X and f/16.8 it is starting to suffer from diffraction.

With the 2X extender, the MP-E's range becomes 2X to 10X, and at 10X the widest aperture is effectively f/33.6 (=16.8*2). This will be significantly less sharp than a 10X NA 0.25 microscope objective that costs less than $100. In fact on an APS-C sensor, the MP-E 65 at 5X is blown away by the 10X objective pushed down to 5X by using a 100 mm tube lens. See comparison images at http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=15876.

Using a bellows with the MP-E has the same problem with maximum aperture, and runs into the additional problem that diaphragm control on the MP-E requires electronic connection with the camera body. I don't see that function provided with the bellows that you've linked, although it can be provided by a different bellows, or Novoflex says that it can be added to their BALPRO by augmenting with their http://www.novoflex.com/en/products/mac ... eos-retro/.

Probably there are better combinations for whatever you're trying to do.

What is your goal?

--Rik

Yes the whole Novoflex setup would be:
Camera body (5D MK II) - EOS RETRO + EOS-UNI - CASTBAL T/S with CASTEL-Q - UNI-EOS + EOS-RETRO - EOS-Lens (MP-E 65mm).
That way is fully functional. Aperture control, etc.
This bellows offer Tilt & Shift functions which is nice.

[Cunha]

Is it possible to "expand" the lens with one of those 10x NA 0,25 microscope objective you refer?

The MP-E 65 does not work very well that way. But inexpensive telephotos can be very good; see for example http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... php?t=9664.

Alternatively, it turns out that the Raynox DCR-150 and DCR-250 lenses intended as closeup add-ons also make quite good and inexpensive tube lenses for use with infinity microscope objectives. See http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=18145 for some discussion. I'm currently doing some testing of those configurations myself and the results are coming out very nice.

--Rik

Will the Nikon CFI 10X Plan Achromat work togetehr with a medium tele lens like the Zeiss ZE 85mm?

[ChrisR]

Will the Nikon CFI 10X Plan Achromat work togetehr with a medium tele lens like the Zeiss ZE 85mm?

Even with APS you'd expect to be clipping the corners off with that, if not just darkening. A 5D (full frame I assume) would need a longer "tube" lens.

By the way if you reverse your 2x converter with adapters to go onto the front of your MP-E, you'll be able to see a larger field. Not up to studio quality perhaps, but as a walkabout retaining electronic controls, some like it.

[rjlittlefield]

Sorry, I missed some of your questions earlier. ( You and I were posting at almost exactly the same time.)

"Nikon CFI 10X Plan Achromat on Canon 100 mm macro lens, giving 5X. This combo is much sharper than the MP-E 65"
from your link.

Some questions; please:
1.
Makes any sense to do the above with the Nikon CFI 10X Plan Achromat+MP-E 65mm? Or it´s not possible to attach microscope objectives to this lens? because I´ve it.

This does not work well. It gives a low-magnification low-quality image with vignetting.

2.
For the Nikon CFI 10X Plan Achromat on Canon 100 mm macro lens; the x5 maximum is really the maximum of this combo?

Yes. For a combo using an objective plus a rear lens, the magnification is always just the objective rating multiplied by the rear lens focal length divided by 200. So, a 10X objective on a 100 mm lens gives magnification 10*100/200 = 5. To get more magnification, you can use a longer lens on the rear, or (equivalently) stick a teleconverter type extender between the rear lens and the camera. Extending the rear lens with empty tubes also works to some extent, but there is more loss of image quality.

3.
where to look for (to buy new or used?) the Nikon CFI 10X Plan Achromat?

The Nikon CFI 10X and CFI BE 10X objectives can be purchased new from your local Nikon representative. See http://www.nikoninstruments.com/Where-to-Buy . To avoid confusion, be sure to include the part number when talking with Nikon. These lenses also come up on eBay occasionally, but much less now than several years ago. I don't see any offered right now on eBay.

4.
what is black ring to attach the Nikon CFI 10X Plan Achromat to lens bellow?
The name and where to buy it?

Adapter rings can be purchased new through eBay. Descriptions and links can be found in the FAQ: How can I hook a microscope objective to my camera?.

This bellows offer Tilt & Shift functions which is nice.

With the MP-E, tilt/shift won't work as well as you might imagine. The problem is that the MP-E is very long internally, almost 200 mm between the front and rear elements when extended to 5X. As a result it does not hold up well to tilting. With more than a few degrees of lens tilt you'll be completely outside the image circle. Tilting the camera does a better job of keeping the sensor inside the image circle, but unfortunately that also requires a larger tilt to be effective. See http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 870#115870 and the surrounding thread.

--Rik

[Cunha]

Rik,
this is really helpful.
You´ve answered all my doubts.
Thanks a lot.