Is my logic reasonable?

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Ancient1
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Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:10 am
Location: San Jose, California, USA

Is my logic reasonable?

Post by Ancient1 »

I have a lens that is not specified as to NA. So, to determine the NA I performed a simple test, made an assumption and then calculated NA.

Ideally, a resolution slide would be the way to measure the resolution, but not having one, I used a calibration slide with 10um tics. Looking at the tic marks, they are very nicely resolved. I approximated that with thinner lines, the lens would probably resolve the spaces between 2 more lines added between the 10um tics, or 3.3um. Remember that the Rayleigh limit does not require the lines to cleanly resolved, as the Airy discs are overlapping at the resolution limit. So, I approximated that the resolution is about 3.3um. Calculating the NA, using 550nm and 3.3um, I get ~0.1. The sensor is a 1.3MP with image scale of 1.55um/pixel. This just satisfies the Nyquist criteria for the 3.3um resolution that I calculated, so the sensor shouldn't affect the accuracy of the measurement. Does this all sound reasonable, of have I missed the boat somewhere? Here is the calibration slide image. Does my assumption that two lines dividing the 10um tics sound reasonable?

Image
Eugene Cisneros

Ancient1
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Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:10 am
Location: San Jose, California, USA

Post by Ancient1 »

Just for reference, I am including a couple of images taken with the 1.3MP system. Yes, I know 1.3MP is ridiculous by today's standards, but this is one of DinoLite digital microscopes that I am testing and the results seem reasonably good considering.

The spider is a single image taken by someone else. The FOV is 5mm. The second image, taken by me, is of a Neptunite specimen and is a stack. FOV is 2mm.

Image


Image
Eugene Cisneros

rjlittlefield
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Post by rjlittlefield »

Eugene,

On a quick review of your numbers, I think I disagree with your analysis that the sensor is not limiting. Let me tell the story in a different way and see if you agree.

Start by assuming that you're getting 1.55 µm per pixel at the subject. Then because of the Nyquist limit, you could not possibly resolve more than one cycle every 3.1 µm, no matter how sharp your lens is. So, your estimate of one cycle every 3.3 µm suggests that the lens is at least NA 0.1, but it could be arbitrarily wider & sharper than that and you would never know given the sensor at hand.

Looking again at your images, I find that I am confused by your phrase "image scale of 1.55um/pixel". In the first image posted, I measure 554 pixels in 0.6 mm. Dividing out, that gives 1.08 µm per pixel in the image as displayed. Is the image a 100% crop? If so, then the resolution would be 1.08 µm per pixel on subject. Or is the image reduced to 50% of an original 1280 x 960? If so, then the resolution on subject would be twice as good, 0.54 µm per pixel. Either way, it's substantially better than 1.55 µm per pixel on subject. Hence my confusion. When you write "image scale of 1.55um/pixel", what does that mean and how was the number obtained?

Popping up a level, let me caution that it's notoriously difficult to measure NA by looking at image resolution. Consider for example the dramatically different results obtained from three different 10X NA 0.25 objectives HERE, HERE, and HERE. The first two are quite sharp, the third is fuzzy. If one were to estimate NA based on the third lens's resolution, I think the calculation would come out far below the manufacturer's rating, which is most likely pretty accurate because it would have been based on geometry.

Speaking of geometry, I notice that the FOV shown in your first image is only 0.69 mm. If that's the total field of view, then it's in the range of what's typically covered by a 20X microscope objective, whose NA's are typically 0.4 or higher. If you need more resolution than what you're getting, it won't be hard to come by.

Popping up even another level, I'm curious what you're really trying to determine, and why.

If you really care about NA, it's not terribly difficult to determine from geometry. With many lenses you can measure pupil sizes and focal length, and compute from there. Where that doesn't work (for example because the pupils cannot be measured), you can measure the cone angle directly by setting up an experiment like shown HERE.

Alternatively, NA can also be estimated pretty well by comparing image brightness for the unknown lens and for a known lens set up at the same magnification. The typical approach is to match histograms by changing the exposure time. This presumes, of course, that you're using a camera where the exposure time can be accurately controlled. The scheme also depends on having a "known lens" whose behavior really is known. That can be harder than it sounds, because due to pupil factor many lenses have smaller or larger effective apertures than would be suggested from their rated f-numbers alone.

In any case, I'm having trouble figuring out why you'd be interested in NA for a lens that you have in hand. If it's all you have to work with, then NA is useful as some indicator of how sharp a lens may be, and certainly what DOF it will have. But lenses commonly do not resolve as well as their NA would suggest, and for most applications it's ultimately resolution that matters. So why not just concentrate on resolution in the first place?

I see I haven't answered one question you asked. That was "Does my assumption that two lines dividing the 10um tics sound reasonable?". It does, and that's easy to demonstrate by experiment. Simply pull the image into Photoshop, copy/paste the image to form 3 layers, set the layer opacities to top=33% and middle=50%, shift the top two layers to evenly distribute the tick marks, and observe that 3 times as many lines can be seen. Here is the demonstration, scaled by 200% from what you posted.
Image

Bottom line, I have no trouble with the idea that your lens and sensor are resolving at least 3.3 µm per cycle. After that, I'm not so sure.

Sorry for the long posting. It's a personal curse that I spend so much time thinking about things like this. I hope you find my comments and questions helpful.

Best regards,
--Rik

Ancient1
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:10 am
Location: San Jose, California, USA

Post by Ancient1 »

Rik,

Many thanks for your reply to my post. First, I have to apologize for the errors that I made that are the source of the confusion regarding image scale. I suppose that I could write it off to a “senior moment” but in reality it was just plain carelessness and lack of proofing before posting.

I have two models of the camera that I am testing. The one that is the subject of this post is the AM413T5, which has a FOV of ~0.69 mm and a fixed magnification. The other model is an AD413T, which has variable magnification and a FOV of 2 mm at maximum magnification. I mistakenly used the FOV from the second unit in the earlier post. Again, my bad!

So, correcting the mistake, the pixel scale on the subject is ~690 um/1280 pixels = ~ 0.54 um/pixel. At a resolution of 3.3 um, the image would be over sampled by a factor of ~3. I believe that means that the measured resolution of the lens is not being limited by the sensor.

Actually, when looking at your clever method of increasing the number of resolution test lines with Photoshop, I believe that 3.3 um resolution is probably a conservative estimate, which means that the resolution and the calculated NA are even higher than I thought. Why didn’t I think to do that?

I agree that it may not be accurate to calculate NA from the measured resolution, as the overall quality of a lens could degrade resolution while not affecting the optical path geometry. It does give a sense of the minimum, or equivalent, NA of the lens though. Conversely, calculating the resolution, from a given NA may not be realistic at all.

The reason that I am attempting to do this exercise is to somehow quantify the lens so as to be able compare it with, seemingly, the standard by which objectives are specified, namely NA. Unfortunately, the lens is not removable from the camera, so any methods for physically measuring the light cone are probably not possible. The bottom line, for what it’s worth, is that I would like to be able to compare the lens with say a Nikon Plan 1X NA=0.1. In fact here is a crude comparison of just that. Both images were taken with 1.3MP sensors. The 1X plan image was with a Nikon SMZ-800 stereo scope, at max magnification and with a 0.6X relay lens. A resolution slide would be nice for this work, but unfortunately is too costly.

Image

I am also trying to optimize my results with the 1.3MP systems mentioned above before moving on to a DSLR and various objective lenses. Processing times are much quicker for stacks so that my patience isn’t being taxed. Perhaps by Xmas, justifiable as a gift, I will be ready to move on to more sophisticated equipment.

I should also mention that the images in my second post were taken with the AD413T lower magnification version of the cameras.
Eugene Cisneros

rjlittlefield
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Post by rjlittlefield »

Eugene, thanks for the additional info. This makes a lot more sense now and I agree that the sensor is not limiting the resolution you've observed so far.

But I'd like to pop back up to the highest level and discuss what you're trying to accomplish.

As I understand it, you have in hand two Dino-Lite USB microscopes, models AD413T and AM413T5, and you're trying to figure out
1) how they compare with conventional scopes, and
2) how to communicate that comparison to other people.

If I were reading such a comparison, I think what I'd be interested in knowing is field of view and resolution within that field, followed by working distance.

This last image pair that you've presented is a good head-to-head comparison, but the heads are rather different. On the left is the AM413T5 with an FOV of 0.69 mm and a working distance of a couple of mm. On the right is what's essentially a severe crop from a lens with an FOV exceeding 20 mm and a working distance of a couple of cm.

Given those differences, I'm really not surprised to see that the AM413T5 looks to have better resolution. If you compared against a conventional microscope objective with similar FOV and working distance, I expect that the AM413T5 would not come out so well. But maybe it would -- I've been surprised before.

In any case, if you want to make the image comparisons even more accessible, I suggest also showing another pair using a commercial prepared slide of something like a flea, which is both recognizable and has lots of detail at pretty much all size scales. To my eye, there's hardly anything more convincing than two images that are matched for scale, color, and brightness, and vary only in sharpness.

Regarding NA, there actually a simple way to measure it even with a fixed lens. Grab a single-edged razor blade, set it perpendicular to the optical axis, align the blade to split the field, and focus on the edge. Make a mark on the back side of the razor blade to indicate where the center of the field is. Then, working from the back side of the razor blade and perhaps a couple of feet away, shine a laser pointer on the mark so that the edge intercepts half the beam. When the pointer is close to the optical axis, half the beam will enter the lens and the image will be very bright. As you move the pointer off-axis, still keeping it centered on the mark, still half the beam will enter the lens and the image will stay bright. At some point farther off axis, none of the light will enter the lens (except for diffraction around the edge) and the image will suddenly get very dim. The angle at which the image goes dim tells you the edge of the entrance cone, so you can work out NA from the pointer's position.

I hope this helps. Those Dino-Lites look like interesting devices. Thanks for calling them to my attention.

--Rik

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