Oly vs. Nikon Oil Objectives - new images added - setup imag

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NikonUser
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Oly vs. Nikon Oil Objectives - new images added - setup imag

Post by NikonUser »

Compared a Nikon 60xoil CF N Plan Apo (NA 1.4) with an Olympus 100xoil S Plan Apo (NA 1.4) on an Olympus scope, with a 2.5x Nikon relay lens for the 60x and a similar Olympus 2.5x lens for the 100x.

The setup also had a 1.25 Olympus intermediate lens, Olympus substage condenser and Olympus trinocular tube.

Photographed a micrometer slide, lines are 0.01 mm apart

Top: full frame; bottom actual pixels from left edge (half way down the vertical).

Nikon is really disappointing; perhaps it needs a Nikon scope?
Image
Image
NUM10099
Last edited by NikonUser on Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
NU.
student of entomology
Quote – Holmes on ‘Entomology’
” I suppose you are an entomologist ? “
” Not quite so ambitious as that, sir. I should like to put my eyes on the individual entitled to that name.
No man can be truly called an entomologist,
sir; the subject is too vast for any single human intelligence to grasp.”
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr
The Poet at the Breakfast Table.

Nikon camera, lenses and objectives
Olympus microscope and objectives

rjlittlefield
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Post by rjlittlefield »

That part about the intermediate lens is a little scary -- easy for such things to introduce geometric distortion. Can you get that out of the system?

Is there any other glass in the trinocular tube, other than beamsplitters?

Is the Nikon relay lens rated as CF?

I assume you're using oil with these objectives. (I know, it sounds silly. But leaving out the oil would be a modest omission compared to some of the things I've forgotten from time to time.)

--Rik

Pau
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Post by Pau »

If I understand well, the last image is from the Oly. It shows a very little CA in the secondary spectrum, and the the one with high CA in the primary spectrum (orange-blue) is from the nikon, isn't it?

If so, there is something wrong, the nikon CF is spected to work OK whith the CF eyepiece. In the first image the barrel distorsion is very high :smt017

I don't have the answer nor this equipment, but I would proceed trying to isolate the problem:

- Repeat the test (If I was you, I would first suspect my own error changing the lenses, but I have a very bad head)
- Do the same test with other objective pair, for exemple the 10X
- remove all the other optical components: intermediate tube (this 1.25X...), DIC slider...
- remove the microscope head and couple the camera with a bellows trying to set the tube lengh (between the objective shoulder and the sensor) to 150mm as most acurate as you can.
- Is the camera image in your setup parfocal with your image trough the viewing eyepieces?. Is it sharp at the same focusing points whith both photoeyepieces?
Be aware that this high NA objectives are very sensitive to the tube lengh.
- I think that the Oly NFK is not designed to work at the same tube lengh than the viewing eyepieces, perhaps the nikon one would work at a different distance: if you focus the microscope with a 10X objective and change the photoeyepiece for an viewing one, is it still focused?
- Ask to do this last test to a member that uses a nikon scope whith this kind of optics

if nothing works, send me all the optics as a Christmas gift :lol:
Pau

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Post by NikonUser »

Rik: Thanks for commenting.

60x is identical to the image on the cover of the "New CF Lenses" catalogue, The thought occurred that someone may have switched barrels but everything looks pretty solid.

Yes oiled, both images taken taken within a few minutes of each other, on same nosepiece, just had to change relay lenses.

BH2 beam splitter with 100% of the light to the vertical tube, perhaps there is till some glass in the way?

Would be nice if the 1.25x intermediate tube was causing the problems (2 at least), easily removed. The 1.25x is the bit that holds another bit for the DIC. As this seems to have little, if any, effect apart from the unwanted magnification for the Oly objectives I leave it there all the time.

Will try the 60x again without the 1.25x.

I thought the 60x with that high NA would fit nicely between my 40x and 100x; too bad its a Nikon.
NU.
student of entomology
Quote – Holmes on ‘Entomology’
” I suppose you are an entomologist ? “
” Not quite so ambitious as that, sir. I should like to put my eyes on the individual entitled to that name.
No man can be truly called an entomologist,
sir; the subject is too vast for any single human intelligence to grasp.”
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr
The Poet at the Breakfast Table.

Nikon camera, lenses and objectives
Olympus microscope and objectives

Pau
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Post by Pau »

some more tips:
-Is your micrometer slide glass covered?. if not, put a drop of inmersion oil on it and add coverglass.
- be aware that at this magnification the resolution in the sensor side (Mpx) is much lower than with low power objectives. A 100% crop is far too demanding.
- The optical issues shown here (CA in the primary spectrum and geometrical simple distortion are easy to fix with a RAW converter like Adobe camera RAW). The most important is if the resolution and contrast are good enough. The stage micrometer is not the best subject to test it.
Pau

NikonUser
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Post by NikonUser »

Pau: thanks for the feedback. I did not deliberately ignore your first reply, it came while I was answering Rik's.

I reshot the slide after removing the 1.25x lens.

The slide does have a cover glass.

My technique is to sharp focus through the oculars and then adjust the distance between the Nikon CF PL 2.5x and the D90 sensor using LiveView on an HDMI TV. LiveView image can be enlarged on the Nikon D90.

Maybe a micrometer slide is not the best test subject but you have to admit that the 100x Oly did a very good job.
It would be nice to see a similar example with this 60x lens on a Nikon scope.

Don't hold your breath waiting for the objectives, but Merry Christmas anyway.

Image below is again full frame and 1000px selection of actual pixels from the far left of the frame.
Better than before but still not as good as what I would expect from a CF lens.
Image
Image
NUM10101
NU.
student of entomology
Quote – Holmes on ‘Entomology’
” I suppose you are an entomologist ? “
” Not quite so ambitious as that, sir. I should like to put my eyes on the individual entitled to that name.
No man can be truly called an entomologist,
sir; the subject is too vast for any single human intelligence to grasp.”
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr
The Poet at the Breakfast Table.

Nikon camera, lenses and objectives
Olympus microscope and objectives

NikonUser
Posts: 2694
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:03 am
Location: southern New Brunswick, Canada

Post by NikonUser »

I found one problem, although the Nikon CF PL 2.5x relay lens fits into the trinocular of the Olympus BHS it sits too high; its bottom lens is 20 mm too high.
So, I replaced it with the Olympus NFK 2.5x and adjusted the distance between this relay lens to give me exactly 150x magnification; which incidentally gave a sharp image through the oculars and on the TV monitor.
Top image is full frame, 0.157 mm wide
Bottom is a 1000px selection, top left (from the original 4288 x 2,848 px)

The barrel distortion has gone; CA possibly manageable.
(last image on the previous post is wrong, too many bars :oops: )
Image
Image
NUM10103
NU.
student of entomology
Quote – Holmes on ‘Entomology’
” I suppose you are an entomologist ? “
” Not quite so ambitious as that, sir. I should like to put my eyes on the individual entitled to that name.
No man can be truly called an entomologist,
sir; the subject is too vast for any single human intelligence to grasp.”
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr
The Poet at the Breakfast Table.

Nikon camera, lenses and objectives
Olympus microscope and objectives

rjlittlefield
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Post by rjlittlefield »

Good catch on the relay lens position. Aside from the distortion issue, the new image appears sharper than the one at top of thread. That's not surprising since the graph HERE shows that an NA 1.40 objective has very little tolerance for tube length variation.

--Rik

Pau
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Post by Pau »

Well, the problem is now isolated, one of the possibilities I considered in my first post (perhaps burried in my badly written text): the intemediate image not matching the right distance. If it's too high, the magnification decreases and the spherical aberration increases.
Is the nikon phoeyepiece sliding down in the trinocular tube up its shoulder?. Can the photoeyepiece holder be modified to allow it?
Pau

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Post by NikonUser »

Rik: what's the log scale on the right Y-axis measuring?

Pau: yes the nikon tube slides all the way down to its shoulder.
There is plenty on room to machine off 20mm to make the correct tube length; may not be possible but I could not do it.
Image of an identical relay lens (different magnification)
HERE on ebay
NU.
student of entomology
Quote – Holmes on ‘Entomology’
” I suppose you are an entomologist ? “
” Not quite so ambitious as that, sir. I should like to put my eyes on the individual entitled to that name.
No man can be truly called an entomologist,
sir; the subject is too vast for any single human intelligence to grasp.”
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr
The Poet at the Breakfast Table.

Nikon camera, lenses and objectives
Olympus microscope and objectives

rjlittlefield
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Posts: 24425
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:34 am
Location: Richland, Washington State, USA
Contact:

Post by rjlittlefield »

NikonUser wrote:Rik: what's the log scale on the right Y-axis measuring?
I think it's just a copy of the one on the left, measuring change in tube length. Likewise for top/bottom measuring NA.

--Rik

NikonUser
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Post by NikonUser »

Mitch is wondering about my microscope/camera setup specifically for the above images.
The following image should be self explanatory.
I have raised the face plate on the bellows to show the Olympus relay lens (the Nikon relay lens projects up much higher and extends quite a way into the bellows).
The opening in the bellows is wide enough to fit over the relay lens and has enough free space all around so that the camera/bellows can be moved
to center the image onto the sensor. I do this while using LiveView and seeing the image on the TV
I actually use a foam ring that fits on top of the trinocular tube and forms a light-tight seal between the relay eyepiece and face plate of bellows.
Even though the bellows/camera is just touching the foam ring, essentially there is no contact between bellows/camera and microscope. No vibration.
Image
NUM10104
NU.
student of entomology
Quote – Holmes on ‘Entomology’
” I suppose you are an entomologist ? “
” Not quite so ambitious as that, sir. I should like to put my eyes on the individual entitled to that name.
No man can be truly called an entomologist,
sir; the subject is too vast for any single human intelligence to grasp.”
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr
The Poet at the Breakfast Table.

Nikon camera, lenses and objectives
Olympus microscope and objectives

Mitch640
Posts: 2137
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:43 pm

Post by Mitch640 »

After you mentioned that your relay lens wasn't seating all the way down, I got to thinking about my setup, and sure enough, my relay lens was not seating all the way down. It was working, but I was seeing a black background with a smaller circle in the middle with the view of the slide in there. The bad news was, with the adapter I had, the relay lens was just a little to fat to slip all the way down. But, lucky me, I had another extension tube setup that I bought recently, that has several tubes that screw together, with an EOS body connector on one end and the lens connector on the other. Kenko tube style only really cheap. This setup now sits right on top of the trinocular tube, the relay lens drops into it's normal hole and I am good to go again, with the help of about 3 feet of black electrical tape to hold it on the tri-tube. Since I just bought the T1i, I do not have to fight shutter vibration. It's no longer exactly parfocal, but I think with some tinkering, I can get it very close.

I'm just glad you posted your problem, which made me think about mine and check it, and find it and fix it. Another good day. :)

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