tips for new Camera

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kohli-vie
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Location: Vienna

tips for new Camera

Post by kohli-vie »

Dear people,

now that I have more time again, I am reactivating my microphotography workstation.
after being pretty frustrated with the Canon RP (they promised an electronic shutter according to the brochure, but it doesn't really have one in a sensible way) I sold it after just 200 photos :-(

my requirements:
- live view on the HDMI output
- control of the basic camera functions via API
- SDK therefore essential

my current equipment:
- many M43 rings, various adapters
- Raynox DCR-250 (and probably a 150 in the future
- Mitutoyo M PLAN APO 20x 0.42
- DIY 5D Macro Rig (in progress)
- DIY LED flash without PWM control

maybe in the future:
- M PLAN APO 10x or 5x
- alternatively Laowa Aurogon

Now I'm faced with the decision of whether to buy a Nikon Z6 II or Z7 II.

is full format worth it for these purposes?
or is APS-C enough

or does anyone have another suggestion that meets my requirements?

budget max 2000 EUR, I would buy the Z7II either from a dealer or a trustworthy private person

ps:
I have searched/read a lot here, but:
since a search term has to have at least 4 characters, pretty much all the desired search terms like LPI, Z6, .... are out of the question.

ps2:
translated by google

Chris S.
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Re: tips for new Camera

Post by Chris S. »

kohli-vie wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2025 11:42 am
Now I'm faced with the decision of whether to buy a Nikon Z6 II or Z7 II.

Is full format worth it for these purposes?
Or is APS-C enough

Or does anyone have another suggestion that meets my requirements?

Budget max 2000 EUR, I would buy the Z7II either from a dealer or a trustworthy private person
Kohli-vie,

I'm sure you know this--but to make sure we're communicating clearly--both the Nikon Z6II and Z7II are full-frame 35mm cameras, not APS-C. The difference between the two is that the Z6II is a 24.5 MP body and the Z7II is a 45.7 MP body. Both, of course, can be shot in APS-C crop mode, in which the Z7II delivers about 20 MP.

My own preference for use with Mitutoyo objectives is APS-C crop, but there are good photographers who prefer full-frame for these same objectives. It comes down to how important corner performance is in your work and your subjects. Even on full frame, the corners are still quite good with most Mitutoyo objectives--just a little less good than an APS-C crop. A high-megapixel body like the Z7II might be a nice compromise, as you have plenty of megapixels to crop from if you need perfect corners, or can keep the whole field of view if you want it. Plus, shooting a full frame camera when you want an APS-C crop makes it easier to aim and frame, as you are looking through a larger live-view window.

If you want to save some money, you might consider the Z7 (first version, not the II). It's been a while since I looked, but the Z7 used to be about $600 cheaper on the used market than the Z7II. There are differences, but they may or may not matter in your work. I chose the Z7II, but the key feature for me was the ability to power the body through a USB socket, which the older Z7 lacked. Later, I found I could get a dummy battery for much less money that would let me plug a USB power pack in through the battery compartment.

If fully electronic shutter is important to you, please check any Nikon body you consider to make sure it has an implementation of electronic shutter that suits your requirements. The Z8 and Z9 have what I think of as fully electronic shutters; other models tend to have some hybrid level of physical shutter/electronic shutter combination that may or may not match your needs. The Z6III (as yet unmentioned) seems to have both a fully mechanical and fully electronic shutter--but I have no experience with it.

I know the APS-C Nikon bodies less well than the full-frames. I do use the older D7100 APS-C DSLR, with Mitutoyo objectives, in the macro studio. A similar, somewhat newer APS-C body in the same series is the D7500. It has electronic first curtain shutter (EFCS), which my D7100 lacks. EFCS would be useful (I can work without it in continuous light with long exposures, but these require a steady rig and quiet environment). The later Nikon mirrorless Z bodies in APS-C, I know not at all.

From your post, you may be planning to use the SDK to write your own software? If not, ControlMyNikon works well for all bodies mentioned here (except the Z8, Z9, and possibly Z6III, which are or may be too new) and is not expensive. This software's downside is that it is too slowly updated for new bodies--something that should not be an issue for the more-than-two-year-old bodies you are considering.

While you asked about other suggestions, my personal knowledge of brands other than Nikon is sadly hit-or-miss.

Best,

--Chris S.

Darionett
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Re: tips for new Camera

Post by Darionett »

Hi,

I give you my experience as a user of Sigma FP-L.

FF camera with 61Mpx and only electronic shutter, L-mount bayonet.

Pros: Japanese-made camera, compact but solid body, compatible with a wide range of accessories and grip; possibility of saving the photo directly to an external SSD (recommended); possibility of shooting at 6 ISO in camera; possibility of shooting in DNG format without pre-coloring; low price of the new one. Cons: Suffers from banding and shutter reading time of 1/15, unusable for sports photos or in any case where a high-performance AF and freezing of the subject is necessary.

Best regards,

Dario N.

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CrispyBee
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Re: tips for new Camera

Post by CrispyBee »

I've been working with Nikon cameras on an almost daily basis for quite a few months now and honestly... they're ok but far from ideal, especially compared to Sony.
Unless you have a very specific reason for staying with Nikon I'd suggest you take a look at what other companies have to offer as I get the feeling that Nikon is somewhat falling behind, especially when it comes to macro/micro-specific aspects of photography.
In my opinion Sony offers similar or better specs at a lower price-point with more compact and lighter cameras at the same quality.

My main issues with Nikon: frequent misfires (both with remote control and triggering the shutter button), horrible focus bracketing implementation, lack of decent display movements compared to competing cameras in the same price range, AF-performance in macro range, late and lacklustre implementation of newer technologies.
But as I said, they're overall ok and reliable work horses.
Nikon cameras are like an old, grumpy assistant, who has a lot of experience but isn't fond of exploring new ways and you have to really motivate him to work hard.
Sony cameras are like a really motivated young assistant, trying hard to make sure everything works.

But again, this is just my personal experience.

Adalbert
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Re: tips for new Camera

Post by Adalbert »

kohli-vie wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2025 11:42 am
the Canon RP
Hi,
Since you already had a Canon R, you probably still have a few suitable lenses (if not already sold).
Have you looked at the Canon R7 ?
It has a fully electronic shutter and the APSC fits perfectly with all microscope lenses.
Best

Lou Jost
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Contact:

Re: tips for new Camera

Post by Lou Jost »

On paper, Sony cameras are excellent. But Sony cooks their RAW files (look up "Star eater") and some models use lossy compression on their RAW files without giving the user an option to turn it off. These are practically criminal things to do to a photographer's RAW files. Astrophotography in particular is ruined by this, but so are many other techniques that involve multiple photos of the same object. here are also some problems caused by PDAF banding.

I understand that newer Sony cameras do now give the user options to turn off lossy compression, but it is unclear whether they have fully fixed the RAW noise-reduction manipulation.

kohli-vie
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:05 am
Location: Vienna

Re: tips for new Camera

Post by kohli-vie »

Hi Chris,
thanks for your detailed answer
Chris S. wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:19 am
I'm sure you know this--but to make sure we're communicating clearly--both the Nikon Z6II and Z7II are full-frame 35mm cameras, not APS-C. The difference between the two is that the Z6II is a 24.5 MP body and the Z7II is a 45.7 MP body. Both, of course, can be shot in APS-C crop mode, in which the Z7II delivers about 20 MP.
cropping center is a good point
yes, my fault: question should be "are 25MP" are enough for this lense combinations
Chris S. wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:19 am
If you want to save some money, you might consider the Z7 (first version, not the II). It's been a while since I looked, but the Z7 used to be about $600 cheaper on the used market than the Z7II. There are differences, but they may or may not matter in your work. I chose the Z7II, but the key feature for me was the ability to power the body through a USB socket, which the older Z7 lacked. Later, I found I could get a dummy battery for much less money that would let me plug a USB power pack in through the battery compartment.
when you have the Z7 II: it should have a full electronic shutter in manual mode?
i read it in a detailed test
dummy battery is also important for me
Chris S. wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:19 am
From your post, you may be planning to use the SDK to write your own software?
yes. my goal is to control light/rail/camera from the PC in one application with live view on 2nd monitor

kohli-vie
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:05 am
Location: Vienna

Re: tips for new Camera

Post by kohli-vie »

Hi Dario,

thanks for your reply
Darionett wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2025 1:17 am
I give you my experience as a user of Sigma FP-L.

FF camera with 61Mpx and only electronic shutter, L-mount bayonet.

Pros: Japanese-made camera, compact but solid body, compatible with a wide range of accessories and grip; possibility of saving the photo directly to an external SSD (recommended); possibility of shooting at 6 ISO in camera; possibility of shooting in DNG format without pre-coloring; low price of the new one. Cons: Suffers from banding and shutter reading time of 1/15, unusable for sports photos or in any case where a high-performance AF and freezing of the subject is necessary.
sound interesting, but too much open points.
for example, if camera control via USB is possible with using also HDMI live view
but i will look on it

cons are no problem, camera will only be used for photomicrography

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CrispyBee
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Re: tips for new Camera

Post by CrispyBee »

Lou Jost wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:06 am
On paper, Sony cameras are excellent. But Sony cooks their RAW files (look up "Star eater") and some models use lossy compression on their RAW files without giving the user an option to turn it off. These are practically criminal things to do to a photographer's RAW files. Astrophotography in particular is ruined by this, but so are many other techniques that involve multiple photos of the same object. here are also some problems caused by PDAF banding.

I understand that newer Sony cameras do now give the user options to turn off lossy compression, but it is unclear whether they have fully fixed the RAW noise-reduction manipulation.
Well.

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/9026 ... tar-eater/

Ta-dah ;-)

PDAF affects all cameras that use PDAF. All of them. Some hide it better, others not so much. Nikon cooks their RAW files just the same, with added sharpening and contrast with certain lenses etc.

Darionett
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Location: Sardegna, Italy

Re: tips for new Camera

Post by Darionett »

kohli-vie wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:11 am
Hi Dario,

thanks for your reply
Darionett wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2025 1:17 am
I give you my experience as a user of Sigma FP-L.

FF camera with 61Mpx and only electronic shutter, L-mount bayonet.

Pros: Japanese-made camera, compact but solid body, compatible with a wide range of accessories and grip; possibility of saving the photo directly to an external SSD (recommended); possibility of shooting at 6 ISO in camera; possibility of shooting in DNG format without pre-coloring; low price of the new one. Cons: Suffers from banding and shutter reading time of 1/15, unusable for sports photos or in any case where a high-performance AF and freezing of the subject is necessary.
sound interesting, but too much open points.
for example, if camera control via USB is possible with using also HDMI live view
but i will look on it

cons are no problem, camera will only be used for photomicrography
The Sigma Fp-L has a micro HDMI port to which I connect an external monitor, since the camera display is not orientable.
It has only one type C port, with which it is possible to control it via PC with Capture One or via the software linked here: https://www.sigma-global.com/en/news/2020/07/02/10916/

So, if you connect the PC you can't save the photos to an external device (pay attention to Sigma's list of recommended SSDs), but with Capture One you can choose the destination of the files you shoot, I can't tell you with the Sigma software, as I've never used it.

I usually control the shooting of my mirrorless with the 3.5mm jack and an external controller.

Chris S.
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Re: tips for new Camera

Post by Chris S. »

Let's bear in mind that kohli-vie is looking to build custom software to run a camera in a dedicated studio rig, so some things we typically care about—autofocus, ergonomics, menu systems—won’t matter in his use case. The camera will be a box that attaches to a lens tube, contains a sensor, and interfaces with his custom controller through the SDK. Arguably, the quality and support of the SDK matter more than most other aspects of the camera choice. I well understand this, as the only time I touch the camera in my macro rig is to turn it on and off.

Just this morning, reading about cameras for astronomy work, I read the following about SDKs and the like:
“For . . . astrophotography, it is desirable to be able to control the camera with a computer or Raspberry Pi device and dedicated astronomy software. . . . If this is a route you want to pursue, then you should consider the driver support available for different cameras.

“Canon and Nikon have the best support and work with more devices and software. Sony support has historically been more difficult, but it is possible. . . . Support for Fujifilm, Panasonic, Pentax, etc., is pretty much non-existent.” Source: Choosing a Camera Brand for Astrophotography, by Jason Kurth.
Though Mr. Kurth is talking about commercial software, the developers of that software likely worked with the camera brands’ SDKs. The availability of third-party control software provides a clue about the quality and support of these SDKs.
question should be "are 25MP" are enough for this lens combinations
While an answer should be based on your output needs, I would not find 25MP enough on full frame for Mitutoyo objectives. You would leaving behind quite a bit of the information your lenses provide.
when you have the Z7 II: it should have a full electronic shutter in manual mode?
i read it in a detailed test
Yes, both the Nikon Z6II and Z7II offer what Nikon calls “silent photography,” which is fully electronic shutter without use of the mechanical shutter. They also offer mechanical shutter and electronic front-curtain shutter. (I just double-checked this in the 1143-page ebook Thom Hogan’s Complete Guide to the Nikon Z6II and Z7II—I recommend buying one of Thom Hogan’s guides for any Nikon body one purchases.)
dummy battery is also important for me
I had one made by alvinscables.com.
I give you my experience as a user of Sigma FP-L.
To the “cons” list for the Sigma FP-L, I would add the presence of a low-pass filter, which seems a puzzling choice for a high-megapixel camera. (The lower-megapixel Sigma FP does not have such a filter.) I’ve considered this body myself for Astro work, but the loss of fine detail imposed by a low-pass filter is not acceptable to me. I would say the same for use in the macro studio, where moiré is rarely a problem.
Nikon cooks their RAW files just the same, with added sharpening and contrast with certain lenses etc.
No. While there are issues with how Nikon does lens correction that can be observed in situations with very low signal to noise, it has nothing even close to the “star eater” issue of Sony, which is truly egregious.

One thing that is common to cameras made with Sony sensors--which includes not just Sony cameras but many Nikon, Sigma, Panasonic, Leica, and others--is a subtle right vs. left side sensor difference in low signal/noise situations. I'd guess this is hardware-based, as the various camera companies approach signal processing differently. But to be clear, while these can be serious issues in astrophotography--which often involves enhancing very faint signals while suppressing noise--none of this has much application in the macro studio.
My main issues with Nikon: frequent misfires (both with remote control and triggering the shutter button) . . . .
Your mileage varies from mine. In more than 40 years of shooting Nikon, I have never seen a misfire attributable to the camera. I’ve had cheap wireless triggers skip shots, had wired remotes not work when not screwed in all the way, and a handful of user-error situations where the camera didn’t fire because of something I did. But never, in hundreds of thousands of shots, has the camera itself failed to fire when properly instructed to do so, or fired when it should not have.

I have my share of issues with Nikon, but this isn’t one of them. (And for the record, Nikon does fine for the astro work I do. There is just one lens, made by Sigma, that does not play well when adapted to Nikon, likely due to differences in the sensor stack; I want to use this lens, hence my search for a body that it will get along with.)

--Chris S.

Chris S.
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Re: tips for new Camera

Post by Chris S. »

My main issues with Nikon: frequent misfires (both with remote control and triggering the shutter button) . . . .
Pondering a bit more, I can think of something one might interpret as a misfire, but isn't. I'll quote the Thom Hogan ebook referenced above, page 661:
I sometimes mockingly refer to Single Servo (AF S) as the Shutter Frustration mode and Continuous Servo (AF C) as the Focus
Frustration mode. That’s because until you learn all the nuances of how the Nikon autofocus system works and can anticipate and
avoid the things that keep it from achieving proper focus, you’ll be frustrated that the shutter release might not quite work in a timely
fashion if you’re in one autofocus mode and you might never quite get perfect in-focus pictures when you’re in the other. If you always
photograph in bright light, you might not encounter those problems, but I strongly suggest to every Nikon newcomer that they
actually practice focusing in a variety of conditions with the various camera settings.
Mr. Hogan devotes a number of pages to the Nikon autofocus system. I agree with him that it is frustrating to have your camera not fire because it doesn't think it's in focus, even if this is by design. Thankfully, one can turn this feature off. (Or, as I mostly do, switch to manual focus and wait for this new-fangled autofocus fad to end.)

Maybe that's what seems like misfires?

--Chris S.

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CrispyBee
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Re: tips for new Camera

Post by CrispyBee »

Chris S. wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2025 4:13 pm
My main issues with Nikon: frequent misfires (both with remote control and triggering the shutter button) . . . .
Pondering a bit more, I can think of something one might interpret as a misfire, but isn't. I'll quote the Thom Hogan ebook referenced above, page 661:
I sometimes mockingly refer to Single Servo (AF S) as the Shutter Frustration mode and Continuous Servo (AF C) as the Focus
Frustration mode. That’s because until you learn all the nuances of how the Nikon autofocus system works and can anticipate and
avoid the things that keep it from achieving proper focus, you’ll be frustrated that the shutter release might not quite work in a timely
fashion if you’re in one autofocus mode and you might never quite get perfect in-focus pictures when you’re in the other. If you always
photograph in bright light, you might not encounter those problems, but I strongly suggest to every Nikon newcomer that they
actually practice focusing in a variety of conditions with the various camera settings.
Mr. Hogan devotes a number of pages to the Nikon autofocus system. I agree with him that it is frustrating to have your camera not fire because it doesn't think it's in focus, even if this is by design. Thankfully, one can turn this feature off. (Or, as I mostly do, switch to manual focus and wait for this new-fangled autofocus fad to end.)

Maybe that's what seems like misfires?

--Chris S.
Oh no, it's not that, it's when the camera fires two (or three) shots even though you only trigger the shutter once (in single-shot mode):
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4616210
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4544455
https://www.reddit.com/r/Nikon/comments ... ession_in/
https://www.reddit.com/r/NikonZf/commen ... shot_mode/

This seems to be a common issue with some cameras from the Z series.

As for the "Star eater" thing - yes, that was an issue but the newer models (>3y) don't seem to suffer from that any more.
Though it seems that pretty much ever brand has its own issues when it comes to astro-photography:
https://kolarivision.com/choosing-a-cam ... otography/
But that's not my domain so I can't give any recommendations at all

colohank
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Re: tips for new Camera

Post by colohank »

I've been a Nikon user since 1965 and have used nothing else except a couple of Sony and Canon digital point-and-shoot cameras for less serious applications. Oh, and a sweet little Rollei 35S I carried on hikes back in my Kodachrome days. I have no experience with other brands of serious DSLRs or mirrorless cameras and thus can't comment on the specifics of one brand vs. another. My sense, however, suggests that it's wise to stick with a brand whose controls and menu organization are familiar to me. If I'm using a competent camera and am dissatisfied with the results I'm getting, I'd imagine that the faults are mine and not the camera's.

If you've been using a particular brand or model and are dissatisfied with the results you're getting, by all means change. Golfers do it all the time, thinking that having the latest and greatest new club will miraculously improve their scores. Manufacturers thrive on that mindset.
 
As regards full-frame vs. APS-C sensors, I submit that full-frame is better. With full-frame, you can willingly crop an image, if need be, to achieve the same pixel count as an APS-C sensor, but with APS-C, you can't do the opposite. The only downsides to full-frame are the impacts of file-size on storage and, perhaps, the relatively greater amount of time it takes to align and merge focus stacks owing to the larger amount of information that needs to be processed. When I'm processing stacks on my tired, old, underpowered computer, I routinely hear the cooling fans ramp up in response to the demands of the workload.

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