How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

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lothman
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How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

Post by lothman »

Hi,
by incidence I came in contact to a Chinese manfuacturer of microscope lenses very similar to Mitutoyo Plan Apo lenses.

In our conversation they stated to have a new 2021 Model (using German Optic Software) with improved quality over Mitutoyo.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002 ... 3e5fZvjNZy

So the 10x has a numerical aperture of 0,3 instead of 0,28 to OEM Mitutoyo.
Chinese-Mitu_clone.jpg


very tempting prices, has anybody compared this version against original Mitutoyos? I asked about image circle on sensor, but got no answer up to now. They offer refund if the lens does not meet expectations.


regards
Lothar

Lou Jost
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Re: How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

Post by Lou Jost »

Those prices are indeed very good, in fact good enough that some drop in quality would be acceptable.

But their website makes some weird claims like this:
"All of Our microscopes and components are produced by the same technician on the same production for producing Nikon , Olympus , Zeiss , Leica Famous Microscopes"

How much confidence can one have in a company that says things like this?

lothman
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Re: How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

Post by lothman »

Lou Jost wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:09 am
Those prices are indeed very good, in fact good enough that some drop in quality would be acceptable.

But their website makes some weird claims like this:
"All of Our microscopes and components are produced by the same technician on the same production for producing Nikon , Olympus , Zeiss , Leica Famous Microscopes"

How much confidence can one have in a company that says things like this?
8) I agree sounds strange but in my conversation I had the feeling to speak to a technician and not only to a salesman. So let's see if anybody has experience with them. May be I can get test samples :-)

Doppler9000
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Re: How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

Post by Doppler9000 »

Lou Jost wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:09 am

"All of Our microscopes and components are produced by the same technician on the same production for producing Nikon , Olympus , Zeiss , Leica Famous Microscopes"

How much confidence can one have in a company that says things like this?
This may reflect a translation issue. It may be that they are saying their education and training standards as well as their test and manufacturing equipment is at the same level as the other firms.

JKT
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Re: How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

Post by JKT »

The objective field doesn't quite match Mitutoyo. Let's be conservative and say that Mitu has 30mm sharp area at nominal mag, which I think is conservative. For 10x that would be 3mm on object. These promise 2.4mm, which is 20% smaller. Even if they were sharp all through that, I wouldn't be too happy with my FF camera. For smaller sensors things might work out better.

Duke
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Re: How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

Post by Duke »

Lou Jost wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:09 am

But their website makes some weird claims like this:
"All of Our microscopes and components are produced by the same technician on the same production for producing Nikon , Olympus , Zeiss , Leica Famous Microscopes"

How much confidence can one have in a company that says things like this?
It's not wrong. Maybe not Olympus, but most of modern microscopes of Leica, Zeiss and Nikon are indeed made in Nanjing China in the same general area and probably by the companies that are connected in some way. Most of LOMO optical engineers was also moved there in the early 2000-2010s.
“Thoroughly conscious ignorance is the prelude to every real advance in science.” - JCM

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Scarodactyl
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Re: How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

Post by Scarodactyl »

I wonder if the formula is actually different, because I feel like the 10x/0.30 spec has been around a while on Chinese clones (at least half of which have that 'HL' on them). The quoted FoV is just saying what you'll see on the 10x/24 eyepieces the scope you'd use them on would be equipped with (probably this baby or a similar Mitutoyo clone https://www.ebay.com/itm/254240307054 ). It's quite possible that it doesn't really 'cover' even that in terms of a high quality image circle. On the other hand it's true that Chinese optics have been improving a lot. User Farnsy over on microbehunter recently got a nikon-spec microscope with DIC, including a 20x apo objective that's apparently specced like the classic 20x/0.75 which is an impressive lens.

I have tried a couple of clones and a few were pleasant surprises. I got a really cheap Motic ELWD 10x (same as EO) with a scratch on the front element which on APS-C performed exactly like my Mitutoyo as far as I could tell--I only sold it because it didn't thread nicely onto my Nikon nosepiece (which is a shame since I've since switched nosepieces). I also recently got a Seiwa 10x and 5x at a price too good to pass up, and again the 10x seems basically indistinguishable to my mitutoyo an aps-c (I have been meaning to post the results but keep not getting to it), though in use you can definitely see more axial CA (fortunately it seems to stack out just fine, but it's more present than in the genuine mitutoyo). The 5x I got looks cosmetically great but it's an optical mess, obviously damaged. The Seiwa 10x is also slightly lower NA (plus slightly longer WD) and isn't quite parfocal with mitutoyos.

Outside of the Motic ones which seem to hold up quite well on aps-C, I don't think I've heard of anyone having amazing experiences with Chinese mitutoyo clones. The closest I can think of is a user who bought one of the 5x clones through Wemacro (viewtopic.php?t=34899) and wasn't unhappy for the price, but the test images were not ideal for showing CA and even then I don't think the clone did all that well. Robert has mentioned offhand that he was sent some samples by a Chinese maker but didn't post the results because their performance was too poor. There's this comparison too ( https://www.mjkzz.com/single-post/2017/ ... aberration ), but it's not as useful as I'd hope--trying to push the lens way out of spec by using a 135mm tube lens and then pointing out it doesn't cover twice as large an image circle as it is supposed to is not a completely unambiguous test of its performance vs spec, at least without some in between crops. Mitutoyos' insane image circle size has us all spoiled. [Edit: a subsequent test has shown that the clone in this case performed noticeably worse in the center and only got worse and worse the further out you went!]

So basically I'd say that up to now the results from these non-Motic suppliers have not been good, but they're also extremely spotty. If there's a new formula on top of that it may be worth a try.

There are a couple of these clones that I'm quite interested in but haven't seen any data from. Seiwa offers "HR" versions of their normal clones which are really fat, but instead of having higher resolution apparently have a larger image circle to match a mitutoyo. There's apparently a Russian producer who has a full lineup including a 1x objective which nobody else seems to clone and also some HR ones, though I can't find the link at the moment.
Last edited by Scarodactyl on Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Scarodactyl
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Re: How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

Post by Scarodactyl »

I'm sorry to hijack the thread with this question, but does anyone remember someone posting about a new at the time company that was making mitutoyo-like objectives in Russia(?). I remember they had a cool looking lineup but I can't find it again.

Incidentally on the topic of mitutoyo clones I'd also recommend not going on Kozo's website or especially downloading their spec sheets, I keep getting antivirus warnings when I check it.

lothman
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Re: How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

Post by lothman »

The seller agreed to send me a 5x and 10x, what I will compare to my Mitutoyo versions. So kudos to the seller so far =D>

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Re: How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

Post by Scarodactyl »

Very exciting. I hope they can deliver!

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Re: How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

Duke wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:51 am

It's not wrong. Maybe not Olympus, but most of modern microscopes of Leica, Zeiss and Nikon are indeed made in Nanjing China in the same general area and probably by the companies that are connected in some way. Most of LOMO optical engineers was also moved there in the early 2000-2010s.
Correct, also in Suzhou.

The mini-conglomerate of several Chinese optical companies, headquartered in Nanjing and in direct association with Nikon, and the big 4 is called "Nikon Shunyu Suzhou Optics Company" something like that, I have several photos, gotta dig deep into the archives. It sounds weird because at first glance, Shunyu makes Olympus clones, they even use OEM Olympus parts for their high end systems (fluorescence arm). Suzhou Optics produce Nikon-alike microscopes and entry level ones. They make all the entry level microscopes, including Leica and Zeiss, yet Nikon is in the name. Mitutoyo clones are produced here too I believe, that's why sometimes Nikon branded M Plan Apo HL objectives show up. They perform poorly, it's probably used internally for measurements.

I suppose what happens is microscopes that don't pass QC for the big 4 gets marketed as their own towards the consumer/generic market and/or sold directly to factories. That'll explain the vast amounts of no-label surplus units with optics that are actually extremely good for a mere $150.

I won't make assumptions on these "so called" clones anymore, especially after my Edmund Optics 2x, 5x, and 10x actually beat Mitutoyo counterparts in terms of resolution and chromatic aberration (5x and 10x were purchased new). The corners on full-frame is worse than Mitutoyo, that's it. Mitutoyo might need a game plan here.

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Re: How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

http://www.domilight.com/en/list/?39_1.html
Here's the website of another OEM in Nanjing, the clone objectives are likely produced here, not at Nikon Suzhou Shunyu co.
You can also see the rather famous Swift FM-31 lookalike... I'm about 90% certain it's made in China braded as Swift, from a Japanese product (CICC) that's outsourced to the same factory. Think of it like subcontracting.

I look forward to the results. Hopefully it's the same as Mitutoyo ones, removing the used gambling aspect from purchasing objectives is welcomed by most.

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Re: How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

Post by Barrelcactusaddict »

lothman wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:31 am
The seller agreed to send me a 5x and 10x, what I will compare to my Mitutoyo versions. So kudos to the seller so far =D>
I greatly hope to hear how your venture goes! I too am looking at purchasing a good microscope objective for my extreme macro photography setup, and have been wondering about the reliability and quality of unbranded forms vs. established brands. I actually wouldn't mind ordering from that particular listing, myself; I hope everything arrives well!

I've actually been looking at this one for several months (all the while keeping an eye out for a decent, used 5x Mitutoyo): https://bolioptics.com/5x-infinity-corr ... ance-45mm/ It appears to be a simple clone of a Mitutoyo, and my conversations with Customer Service have led me to assume it is, even though it is marketed under Boli Optics' brand.

I'm a little leery about used objectives (even name brands) and unbranded/clones, like the one from Boli Optics, even more so since I've never purchased one before: perhaps it is just due to my inexperience and skepticism. However, I assume most people don't run into any issues.

If you happen to encounter good results with your order, I'll be all the more encouraged to follow suit! Thank you for creating this article, and to all who have commented so far. You have been most helpful and informative!

lothman
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Re: How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

Post by lothman »

thanks, today the seller sent me these three pics and told me that theses lenses will be shipped. So they are labelled with the higher NA than the Mitutoyos.
mity_clone_a.jpg
mity_clone_b.jpg
mity_clone_c.jpg

soldevilla
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Re: How good are alternatives (clones) to Mitutoyo lenses

Post by soldevilla »

I recently got a x10 from a member of this forum that is exact to the photo you post (well, the photo shows 0.30 and mine is 0.28) and, although I may not be very demanding about the results, I'm excited about the results. I'm thinking of changing the rest my lens now ...
If what I know about astronomy can be extrapolated, it is difficult to know what who does in China.

It is one of the first tests.

Image

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