Photography Problem version 2

Starting out in microscopy? Post images and ask questions relating to the microscope and get answers from our more advanced users on the subject.

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RodgerC
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:08 pm

Photography Problem version 2

Post by RodgerC »

After figuring out I had to pull the knob out on the trinocular head to take a photo, I tried taking some photos. I found that (1) the only objective lens I can use is the 10x when using the camera. (I have a 4x, 10x, and 40x). When I use the 4x lens I run out of travel when focusing using the camera LCD. Just as it is about to come into focus, I run out of travel. The 40x has no chance of focusing while the camera is attached and using the camera to focus. (2) I noticed that when I focus using the eyepiece and then look at the camera's LCD screen for the photo it is way out of focus. So I have to use the LCD screen to focus. (3) The center of the image seems to have a sort of reflection to it. I have used all of the adjustments on the scope to adjust the light but nothing changes. I will probably have to post a photo so you can see what I'm talking about. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Rodger

Scarodactyl
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Post by Scarodactyl »

How is the camera attached? If properly adapted the camera should be parfocal with the eyepieces, which will allow you to use all the objectives. The other issue might also be in the adapter.

Pau
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Post by Pau »

It's clear that your camera adaptation is very inadequate.
Please show and explain us the parts you're using to mount the camera

There are three basic modes to adapt this kind of cameras to microscopes:

- Without camera lens
1. Direct projection of the objective primary image onto the sensor. This can be achieved placing the sensor at 150mm of the objective shoulder. Unfortunately this is inadequate with Olympus finite objectives because, like most objectives from its time, they need compensating eyepieces to correct objective residual aberrations.
2. Eyepiece projection. An eyepiece is used to project (and to correct) the image.
2A. Use of a dedicated projective photoeyepiece, in your case Olympus NFK. This is the original Olympus setup *. The issue here will be the need to buy the adapters and in special the NFK 1.67X that is scarce and expensive.
2B Use a visual eyepiece Olympus WHK a bit raised over its parfocal position to act as projective eyepiece. You would need to determine that position and tune the adapters for it

- With camera lens
This is called afocal method ** and basically this is what you're doing with your phone. Use a visual eyepiece Olympus WHK at its parfocal position and a camera lens focused to infinite to act like your eye. A Sigma 30mm over a WHK 10X eyepiece *** would likely provide the best combo but other combinations are possible even with short zoom lenses

See: http://www.krebsmicro.com/pdf/trinoc_a3.pdf
* http://www.alanwood.net/photography/oly ... scope.html
* http://www.krebsmicro.com/microsetup2/index.html
** https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... 9265#99265
*** http://savazzi.net/photography/zeissadapter.html
Pau

Scarodactyl
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Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:26 am

Post by Scarodactyl »

From your other thread it looks like you have a bh2 and an adapter from newhoper on eBay. I have bought components from them.before and the mechanics of them were just fine, but he suggests using this adapter with a normal viewing eyepiece and nothing else which is not a good idea. Do you have an nfk projective eyepiece in the trinocular port?

RodgerC
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:08 pm

Post by RodgerC »

Scarodactyl wrote:From your other thread it looks like you have a bh2 and an adapter from newhoper on eBay. I have bought components from them.before and the mechanics of them were just fine, but he suggests using this adapter with a normal viewing eyepiece and nothing else which is not a good idea. Do you have an nfk projective eyepiece in the trinocular port?
You are correct. I did buy the adapter from newhoper. No sir, I do not have a nfk projective eyepiece in the trinocular. I did put one of my eyepieces in the trinocular and I can now use all of my lenses, however, when I focus it's close to being in focus but I still have to finish focusing using the LCD on my camera. Since I am brand new to all of this which nfk projective eyepiece would you recommend. I am about to read some of the articles suggested by Pau. I'm sure it will be helpful. I appreciate the help from both of you. Thank you.

RodgerC
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:08 pm

Post by RodgerC »

Pau wrote:It's clear that your camera adaptation is very inadequate.
Please show and explain us the parts you're using to mount the camera

There are three basic modes to adapt this kind of cameras to microscopes:

- Without camera lens
1. Direct projection of the objective primary image onto the sensor. This can be achieved placing the sensor at 150mm of the objective shoulder. Unfortunately this is inadequate with Olympus finite objectives because, like most objectives from its time, they need compensating eyepieces to correct objective residual aberrations.
2. Eyepiece projection. An eyepiece is used to project (and to correct) the image.
2A. Use of a dedicated projective photoeyepiece, in your case Olympus NFK. This is the original Olympus setup *. The issue here will be the need to buy the adapters and in special the NFK 1.67X that is scarce and expensive.
2B Use a visual eyepiece Olympus WHK a bit raised over its parfocal position to act as projective eyepiece. You would need to determine that position and tune the adapters for it

- With camera lens
This is called afocal method ** and basically this is what you're doing with your phone. Use a visual eyepiece Olympus WHK at its parfocal position and a camera lens focused to infinite to act like your eye. A Sigma 30mm over a WHK 10X eyepiece *** would likely provide the best combo but other combinations are possible even with short zoom lenses

See: http://www.krebsmicro.com/pdf/trinoc_a3.pdf
* http://www.alanwood.net/photography/oly ... scope.html
* http://www.krebsmicro.com/microsetup2/index.html
** https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... 9265#99265
*** http://savazzi.net/photography/zeissadapter.html
Pau, I appreciate all of the in depth information. I think you have answered all of the questions I have. Thank very much sir. Greatly appreciated.

Scarodactyl
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Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:26 am

Post by Scarodactyl »

For a micro four thirds camera I believe what you want is a 2.5x nfk projective eyepiece (lowest mag available [they made a 1.67x but it's rare and expensive]) plus the olynpus mtv c mount adapter, which contains reducing optics. I believe a m4/3 camera can then be adapted on to the c mount and get about the right sized image. I haven't tried this myself though, just seen it suggested.

RodgerC
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:08 pm

Post by RodgerC »

Scarodactyl wrote:For a micro four thirds camera I believe what you want is a 2.5x nfk projective eyepiece (lowest mag available [they made a 1.67x but it's rare and expensive]) plus the olynpus mtv c mount adapter, which contains reducing optics. I believe a m4/3 camera can then be adapted on to the c mount and get about the right sized image. I haven't tried this myself though, just seen it suggested.
Thanks. I found a 2.5x nfk projective eyepiece on Ebay for $65.00. Gonna have to try it out.

Tom Jones
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Location: Crestline, CA

Post by Tom Jones »

With my BHS, I use an NFK 3.3x along with the U-PMTVC 0.3x adapter for my Panasonic GH4 micro 4/3 camera on a C-mount.

It gives the equivalent total magnification of ~1.0x, the same as direct projection, but with the necessary color corrections. It's much closer to the right size than the 2.5x which is designed for full frame. It even works better than the 1.67x which is designed for APS-C film cameras. Much, much cheaper, too. Usually even cheaper than the NFK 2.5x. The 2.5x will give you a smaller image area on the sensor than the 3.3x.

The MTV-3 can be used in place of the U-PMTVC as the optics are the same, but you can't adjust focus to parfocalize the system. It will be close though.

I use direct projection for the GH4 on my BX-50's (a Diagnostics Instruments DBX 1.0x with no optics and a C-Mount adapter) as the infinity objectives don't need the final color corrections/compensations in the eyepieces.

RodgerC
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:08 pm

Post by RodgerC »

Tom Jones wrote:With my BHS, I use an NFK 3.3x along with the U-PMTVC 0.3x adapter for my Panasonic GH4 micro 4/3 camera on a C-mount.

It gives the equivalent total magnification of ~1.0x, the same as direct projection, but with the necessary color corrections. It's much closer to the right size than the 2.5x which is designed for full frame. It even works better than the 1.67x which is designed for APS-C film cameras. Much, much cheaper, too. Usually even cheaper than the NFK 2.5x. The 2.5x will give you a smaller image area on the sensor than the 3.3x.

The MTV-3 can be used in place of the U-PMTVC as the optics are the same, but you can't adjust focus to parfocalize the system. It will be close though.

I use direct projection for the GH4 on my BX-50's (a Diagnostics Instruments DBX 1.0x with no optics and a C-Mount adapter) as the infinity objectives don't need the final color corrections/compensations in the eyepieces.
You know I saw that listed on ebay as well. I'm brand new to all of this, and right now it seems to be a little overwhelming. I'm unfamiliar with most of the terms people are using and having to do a lot of research to figure out what will work best without having to mortgage my house to get some good photos. Thanks for the information. I'm using a Panasonic Lumix G7. Just don't know for sure what and how much of this equipment to buy.

Tom Jones
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Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:05 am
Location: Crestline, CA

Post by Tom Jones »

RogerC,

I'm going to suggest you put your camera down for awhile and spend your time researching this stuff. Photomicrography is relatively easy. Good photomicrography is relatively hard. Great photomicrography is time-consuming, expensive, and really hard. It's a lot easier that it was in the film days, but still a lot more complicated than it looks.

There are quite a few extraordinary photomicrographers who post here. Look at what they use and how they use it. Don't be in a big hurry. It will just cost you money and make you crazy! :(

Your Panasonic G7 has four separate still photo pixel resolutions: 4592 x 3448, 3232 x 2424, 2272 x 1704, 1824 x 1368. It also has a few different resolutions and frame rates for video: 3840 x 2160 (30, 25, 24, 20fps) 1920 x 1080 (60, 50, 30, 25fps) 1280 x 720 (60, 50, 30, 25fps), 640 x 480 (30, 25 fps). Each resolution uses a different sized part of the sensor, so ideally you would need a different projection magnification for each one to get the best possible image by filling the frame. In reality, you'll probably get something to work with the highest resolution, and accept the crop factor if you use a lower resolution for some reason. But you should understand what's going on so you don't make expensive mistakes buying the wrong adapters and projection eyepieces.

The increased crop factor just means you photograph a smaller part of the eyepiece view.

The 3.3x/U-PMTVC 0.3x I mentioned above, with a Fotasy CM4/3 C-Mount adapter (some of the cheaper one's don't have the clearance for the U-PMTVC), works very well with UHD 4k video, 3840 x 2160 on the 4/3 sensor. It's what I used to shoot this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqZns4wo0AQ&


Tom

Scarodactyl
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Post by Scarodactyl »

If you decide you don't like the nfk 2.5x I'd buy it for the price you paid plus shipping. I could use an extra since I stole the one from my szh for my bh2, and you got it for a reasonable price. You mught also be able to resell it for a bit more on eBay on a good day.
Unfortunately the 3.3xes currently up on eBay are more expensive, but if you watch for a while you'll find a deal. The 0.3x reducing lens may be the sticking point price-wise.
I thought I'd seen the 2.5x + 0.3x recommended for m4/3 but it may have been a mistake or I may have misremembered.

Alan Wood
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Post by Alan Wood »

The 0.3x reducing lens is not an extra, it is fixed in the removable C-mount adapter of the MTV-3 and the U-PMTVC.

Do NOT buy one of them unless it has the C-mount adapter included. Lots of the ones on eBay do not have the essential C-mount.

Alan Wood

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