New microscope set-up advice please

descall · Post by **descall** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:08 am

Dear Forum,

I have a budget of around £2,000 ($3,000) to invest in a new microscope set-up. I desire a set-up that allows me to attach a DSLR (Canon 50D) and produce good quality images of various parts of mosses and liverworts (from 40x to 1000x magnification). The tissue will be both transparent (e.g. some types of cells) and non-transparent (e.g. certain types of spores). I'm looking for advice on what microscope I should purchase please. I'm not sure whether any of the techniques that can be used to improve contrast (e.g. DIC) will be useful for my purpose, so any advise on that matter would be most welcome. Many thanks in advance for any help.

Best wishes,
Des

Litonotus · Post by **Litonotus** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:47 am

I suggest buying something on the second hand market. for $3000 you may get very good used equipment. I think new stuff is a waste of money. there are many very experienced people here, they will help you for sure with the right choice.

Jan l'Amie · Post by **Jan l'Amie** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:34 am

If I may suggest, for mosses etc. buy two microscopes.
A ,,normal,, light microscope and a stereo microscope.
I have a Byomic BYO500T trinoculair light microscope for 40-1000x magn. with 4 Plan lenses and a Byomic ST-340 trinoculair stereo microscope for 7-45x magn.
I bought them new for about 1100 euro ($) together and I'm very
satisfied with them. I use them with the Canon EOS 50D.
You can find pictures of me made with this equipment at this forum.

Pau · Post by **Pau** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:40 am

I agree with Litonotus. Altough is easier to buy new equipment, with your budget you can access to very high quality microscopes in the used market, even top of the line research ones from the 70s or 80s of the four big makers (Olympus, Leitz, Zeiss and Nikon). It's of course more risky and uncertain but you would end with a much better microscope.
For significatively less than $3000 I own two Zeiss standard scopes with plan fluorite and plan apo optics, phase contrast, darkfield, photo adapters...even incomplete DIC and many other accesories, but I'm collecting the parts since four years now

descall · Post by **descall** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:09 am

Thanks for the replies. I'm very happy to buy used equipment and, of course, am happy to spend less than £2000. I wish to invest the money in a good compound microscope system (I have a stereo microscope that I'll upgrade next year). I see the Olympus BH2-BHS is popular, but I guess there are other good alternatives. Ideally, I would like a microscope that would fit my Nikon M Plan ELWD 40X lens, which I use for photographing mosses and liverworts via a bellows and camera system, but that is not essential. Once I have a list of suitable microscopes I will search for a purchase on eBay and other internet sites. Many thanks, Des

Litonotus · Post by **Litonotus** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:13 am

nikon microphot with planapo objectives - top research model from 80's - $2500, nikon labophot 2 with DIC - about $2000 VS new chinese motic b3 with plan objectives - about $2500...

think about it, and don't be hasty... second hand market is a great thing, but sometimes it requires patience. and that's not bad if collecting is your hobby.

Jan l'Amie · Post by **Jan l'Amie** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:15 am

In our ,,club,, we buy (or get) used very prof. microscopes but there is allways a lot of work to do with cleaning (if still possible) etc.
For 3000 $ you can buy a very nice new prof. microscope.
I think it is a big risk to buy second hand or you must be very sure about the thing.

Jan l'Amie · Post by **Jan l'Amie** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:17 am

Be very carefull with buying Olympus. I heard there is something wrong with the factory.

Litonotus · Post by **Litonotus** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:19 am

Jan l'Amie wrote:For 3000 $ you can buy a very nice new prof. microscope.

with few possibilities of upgrading it. no advanced (like DIC) techniques, only phase contrast and dark field.

Of course - basing on a chinese microscope - you may make a hybrid system using PZO DIC set (:

Mitch640 · Post by **Mitch640** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:33 pm

Don't try and do it yourself. If you buy used, best to deal with a reputable company that sells refurbished scopes. When you buy from E-bay, it's sight unseen and your gambling that you will get something nice. And usually, they are filthy inside from sitting in a basement or warehouse for years.

I bought my Nikon Fluophot, circa 1985 from a used medical supply company. It was packed fine, but it was filthy, and had 3 of the cheapest objectives Nikon ever made and 3 empty holes in the turret. It had been sitting in the warehouse for who knows how long and was full of dust. I tried to contact Nikon USA, they emailed me back with the number of the #1 guy in the shop. I asked about a manual, parts and then how do I take this off or clean that. He gave me a link for a pdf manual, said they had no parts for anything that old and told me the oldest guy in the shop came to work well after this scope was made.

I've had to replace all the lenses but the eyepieces, I've had to clean it the best I could and the prisms in the head are still dirty, can't get to them. Just had to replace the condenser, I got lucky there. It's hard to find any parts for this scope, anywhere.

I like the microscope, there is no plastic on it anywhere, it's all metal and glass, but it's a dinosaur. It will never do DIC, there is one phase condenser left in existence and Francisco over in Spain owns it and he isn't selling. I can't even do Darkfield unless I cut some micky mouse filters and use a toothpick to center them on top of the condenser.

So, make sure you know what your getting, buy something already set up and save yourself a LOT of grief and further expense.

descall · Post by **descall** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:14 pm

Thanks for the further advice. I have thought about this a little more and would like to have the following:

1. Good quality microscope frame, x-y stage, illuminator and condenser
2. DIC equipment
3. Darkfield equipment
4. Trinocular head on which I can mount a Canon EOS 50D
5. Nosepiece turret on which I can mount good quality objectives for use with DIC and normal brightfield/darkfield (I'll but these separately from the $3,000 budget if needed)

In this regard, I hope you may be able to help with a couple of questions:
1. Can all of the above be bought new for $3,000? If so, who would be a good retailer (I'm based in the UK, but don't mind buying from abroad from a reputable dealer)?
2. If the above cannot be bought new for $3,000, can it be bought second-hand from a reputable dealer? If so, from where?

Many thanks for you further advice.

Best wishes,
Des

Jan l'Amie · Post by **Jan l'Amie** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:22 pm

The best in The Netherlands : http://www.microscopen-specialist.nl/

Litonotus · Post by **Litonotus** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:24 pm

descall wrote: Can all of the above be bought new for $3,000?

I don't think so... it may be very hard to get all those items at once, even on the second hand market... complete DIC setups are extremely rare, I saw one couple of weeks ago, and it was sold for about $2000 (nikon labophot 2). the only solution that I see is polish PZO DIC system (about $500-700), usually sold as new, or unused. Works great with many microscopes and objectives. the other way is what I said before - collecting.

descall wrote:2. If the above cannot be bought new for $3,000, can it be bought second-hand from a reputable dealer? If so, from where?

There are many on ebay, and I'm sure most of them are known here. I also think all shops like spachoptics, scope optic etc. are good place to buy very-hard-to-get items. but they are more expensive - they ask twice as much as most ebay sellers, but their price is about half of the manufacturer's list price.

Charles Krebs · Post by **Charles Krebs** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:36 am

The DIC is what will shatter your budget. Used DIC is very hard to track down and new DIC would be about 3 or 4 times your full budget just for the DIC components alone! (no stand or objectives).

Here in the States I've never seen PZO DIC hardware, but the guys in the group here that have set it up get great results. One thing about shopping for used DIC... I strongly recommend waiting until you find a deal that has all the required pieces. Otherwise it may take you years to put it together bit by bit.

If you are patient and look around you might find an Olympus or Nikon setup that fits your "want" list. Add a few good objectives and it will likely cost at least $7-8k (if you are lucky). Knock off the DIC and you can cut that by more than half.

Litonotus · Post by **Litonotus** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:10 am

Charles Krebs wrote: Here in the States I've never seen PZO DIC hardware

and probably you will not see it there... you may get it on Polish allegro, or sometimes on european ebay (but the price is much higher). good things about it are: it is cheap, gives good results, and all parts are usually put together.

If somebody from abroad wants to get it and it is listed on allegro we may help (: