It's a Gray Area...

[Ken Ramos]

However it is supposed to be I guess. I have recieved a few, not many critiques on my black and white macros in other forums. Some people seem to be indifferent and then there are a few who are really mainstream and cannot see the purpose of shooting macro in black and white. I too am mainstream in some ways but really I prefer hanging out in the eddys, where it's quite and where there is less commotion.

Anyway I kind of like black and white or monochrome, what ever you may call it, at the moment. Though black and white may be old school stuff, to me it is new and in a sense different, plus no one seems to be doing much of it anymore except in a few other arenas, still lifes, landscapes, nudes...!? etc. So, here is another. A baby cricket or maybe a Katydid, I don't know.


EOS 30D
Manual mode, monochrome setting w/electronic yellow filter, hand held
1/250 sec. @ f/14 ISO 400
Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 macro
Canon 430EX Speedlite w/diffuser @ -2/3
Partial metering

[cactuspic]

Hi Ken. I am glad you are experimenting with B&W though I believe that many macro photos do not play to the strength of the medium. B&W requires great lighting to bring out the rich toanlities and underlying textures and forms. Insect photography seems more about getting the capture in sharp focus in a light that is diffuse enough to avoid blowing out the details and bring out the natural color. Often color is a primary if not the primary compositional tool. Because of its emphasis on using light to sculpture form and capture texture, the light over the lens flash/or lighting position, does not work as well in B&W. Also, given the speed at which macro of insects occurs, it is difficult to control the tonalities of grey to separate the insect from the backround, before the uncooperating sucker flies awy.

I had seen your post on POTN and wanted to think before responding. Simply put, black and white has to be great just to be good. It is an abstraction that people will question unless it is exceptional. Keep up the good work. The work may be more difficult, the threshohold of success higher and praise scantier, but the work is well worth doing. Please don't take this as a criticism; but rather as encouragement for someone who has taken a more difiicult path.

Irwin

[Ken Ramos]

Constructive criticism and critique is what I am looking for Irwin and you did a good job of both, thanks Yeah I have noticed that not to many people comment on my b & w photos and that's okay. If you have nothing really to say, then I guess saying nothing at all is best. Color has become the norm these days for most everything. Of course there are a few who still work in b & w and will not think of lowering their standards regardless of the trends that photography maybe taking. It is not just the idea that black and white photography is seldom seen anymore, it is the fact that even in macro, as well as other forms, there is room for expression and most everything can be shot in black and white with some reasonabe success. I have seen a number of color images that looked like...well...uh...er...you know. However those same images in black and white can be worked over in the dark or lightroom and come away with at least something somewhat better than at the start, or at least that is the way I seem to see it.

You brought up some good points there Irwin and it makes me to do a little thinking (ouch! ). If I can get at least fairly good or even good at black and white macro images, then maybe I am ready to move on to greater challanges. Your comments were encouraging.

[beetleman]

This one works very well Ken. The white of the flower and the really dark lines of the damage on the flower stand out very brightly and smack you in the face. The insect also stands out well against the non distracting clear background. Almost looks like a full moon in the BG. A winner for sure IMO (must be real nice in large size )

[Ken Ramos]

You know it does look like a big moon rising in the background Doug but actually it is a big poison ivy leaf.

Thanks Doug

[rjlittlefield]

Wow, two great quotes in one topic!

really I prefer hanging out in the eddys, where it's quite and where there is less commotion

I like the eddys too -- not only is it quiet and less commotion, but I get to go around and around and around in circles!

black and white has to be great just to be good

There's a lot of insight packed into those few words.

About this B&W thing, I need to "think out loud"...

When I was learning photography (back in the '60s...), I shot both color and B&W, but I really preferred to work in B&W. Why? Well, mostly because it had a lot of practical advantages. I did my own darkroom work, and compared to B&W, color was a slow expensive hassle. It drove me nuts trying to get proper color balance and exposure in the face of shifting chemistry and temperature, and the development time was so long that I ended up having to plan complicated test prints to check out several options at once. When all was said and done, usually I liked the color result better, but not enough to justify the frustration.

Times have changed. With digital, it's now equally easy to do color or B&W. For that matter, it's easy to compare the two, side by side.

Over the last couple of days, I've tried that comparison with several of my favorite photos. Without exception, the B&W versions feel, I don't know, "lifeless" maybe. They get better when I adjust the curves to put more contrast in the best places, but even at their best, I don't like the B&W's as well.

Can I imagine pictures that look better in B&W? Sure. Sometimes the colors in a scene just don't work together, so getting rid of them eliminates a problem. In that respect, the photos that I tested were biased, because of course I picked the ones I liked in color! If I had picked some scenes that grated in color, then I'm guessing the B&W's would have looked a lot better in comparison.

Hhmm, you know, that's an angle that might be fruitful to explore. Can you shoot raw, then convert to either B&W or color? If so, it might be interesting to work up both versions of several shots and see how they feel to you. Just a thought...

I really like the image posted at the top of this topic. It has good contrast, good sharpness, the textures of the chewed flower and the shininess of the bug go well together, and you couldn't ask for a better pose. Is it better in B&W than color? I don't know. Having it in B&W allows viewers to imagine whatever colors they like. Like Doug, I think it makes a great moon. That wouldn't happen in poison ivy green!

Hope this is helpful. You pose interesting things to think about.

--Rik

[Ken Ramos]

You brought up a lot of good and interesting points there Rik. I can shoot RAW but I have no RAW processor program and good ones are quite expensive and even then have a lot of short comings from what I have read.

The reason I do like black and white is because of color and you more or less made some good arguments for and against color it seems. When shooting color images, especially this time of year, every background is "green." I want "c o l o r s." Sure the subject maybe colorful and everyone wants to see what color it is but a green insect or green anything with a green background is just as lifeless as black and white. Even sometimes though the subject maybe somewhat colorful or dark in color, green backgrounds do not seem to help the photograph any. I love green, green is beautiful but I would like less of it in my photographs and more of it in my wallet. That is "partly" why I am on a black and white photo kick.

[crotermund]

Ken - I find your B&W macro shots are an interesting and certainly unconventional experiment. Please keep it up as I am curious about it. I honestly do not know anything about the technical aspects of B&W and have no background in it so I can't comment with any authority on the subject. I like the composition of this photo, but I am curious about something. The background appears to have a graininess or noise to it. Is this a facet of the B&W photo or could it possibly use some noise reduction?

[Ken Ramos]

Yeah there was quite a bit of noise in this, probably due to my oversharpening of the image no doubt and it is not a facet of b/w photography. However there are some who do prefer a slight bit of grain to b/w images.

How's this



Thanks Craig

[Bruce Williams]

Ken - I've been following your B&W postings with considerable interest. However just recently I've been pretty tied up helping my Mum move house and I didn't want to respond without giving proper consideration to just how I'm seeing and feeling about your work.

If someone had asked me to make a case for b&w photography (before seeing your work) I'd probably have said something along the lines of "Hmmm...well b&w is all about atmosphere, light, form, composition ...but most of all it needs the right subject". I would have been thinking of great b&w photos I'd seen such as (for example): early mornings in the railway yard (days of steam), portraits of grizzled old men, old factories with tall chimneys belching smoke, men working in ship yards, soldiers firing large artillery and rain shining off empty, wet streets. I also think that (generally speaking) b&w needs a large format to really come into it's own and WOW the viewer.

Frankly before seeing your work it would never have occurred to me to take close-up photos of flowers and insects in b&w. However, the fact that it did occur to you and that you are exploring b&w as a medium for close-up photography is very much to your credit. I have enjoyed a lot of your postings (including this one) and am mellowing to the artistic possibilities being suggested by your work.

Thanks and please do keep it up.

Bruce

[rjlittlefield]

However there are some who do prefer a slight bit of grain to b/w images.

How's this

I'm not one of them. Give me the gradation of an 8x10 contact print any day! (Coincidentally, that's about what a modern DSLR does. )

I like this smoother version much better.

--Rik

[Ken Ramos]

Bruce replied:

Hmmm...well b&w is all about atmosphere, light, form, composition ...but most of all it needs the right subject".

I could not agree more Bruce. Not every subject is a good one for black and white, nor is everyone good for color. Thanks for your encouraging comments.

Rik wrote:

I like this smoother version much better.

Got to agree with you there Rik, me too!

[crotermund]

Very nice, Ken. I like the 2nd picture much more also. As long as we are on the topic I would like to ask a stupid question. I'm curious about the difference between composing and shooting in black & white vs just using photoshop to convert select images to black & white. Would the purists of B&W photography have big issues with this? Do you view your scenes differently or look for different things while shooting in B&W than if you were shooting in color? Ok, I guess this was a few stupid questions.

[Ken Ramos]

I was a Naval Ordnance instructor for a few years while in the service, Air Launched Guided Missiles and Laser Guided Weaponry to be exact, and I used to tell my students that, "there is no such thing as a stupid question." Especially when dealing with high explosive warheads and getting them to go "BOOM!" when they are supposed to!

Yes I do find myself looking at things a bit more differently now days. More and more things are beginning to present themselves as subjects for photographing, since I do not consider color to be a prerequisite anymore for my photographs. I am beginning to see b/w as the light at the end of the tunnel so to speak.

As for color conversion. Well I would like to be a purist as far as fly fishing goes, however, split and polished bambo fly rods and silk lines cost many times more than the best digital cameras. Well almost, depends on what you get, what you want, and who you get it from. I would say that the purists of b/w are already frowning on us, for I believe they more than likely think, that any one shooting black and white on anything other than gelatin sheets is probably one to be considered a heretic, much less doing a color to black and white conversion in Photoshop or Photo Impact. I myself like the satisfaction of having originally shot the image in b/w but I do not frown on those who use conversion programs. Really I don't think there is any difference between them and the program for b/w in the camera. However, I cannot be sure of that.