Bino-prism surgery

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Retro
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:15 pm
Location: Scarborough, Ontario

Post by Retro »

Hi, smee again. I managed to track down a liter of methylene chloride and after 4 hours soaking was pleasantly surprised that I could separate the splitter prisms.

Upon inspection it was observed that only one surface was defective. Do you suppose the octagonal prism was once a half-silvered mirror? If so will the performance of the bino-head be seriously affected without the ion deposit?

Here's a couple of pic's...

Image

Image

Jim

g4lab
Posts: 1437
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 11:07 am

Post by g4lab »

The only way you will be able to tell will be to polish that surface off and try to recement (maybe reversibly) and see what kind of spit you get.

You might need to send it out to get a 50% splitter silvered onto it.
Google Optical Coatings.

Retro
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:15 pm
Location: Scarborough, Ontario

Post by Retro »

try to re cement (maybe reversibly)
Good idea. I have some Canada Balsam from Quebec that they claim is 100% pure filtered resin. Should I dilute this with Xylene to some degree and/or heat the joint to some temp to hasten drying?

Please pardon my basic questions, it's my first time working with optics.

Jim

PauloM
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 4:49 am
Location: Portugal

Post by PauloM »

Forgive me for jumping in on this thread, but I am in the process of cleaning a Nikon Q type head, and I could use some advice.

What's the safest way to clean those prisms? I've tried blowing the dust off with some success, but there are some stubborn specs that look like they won't come off unless some liquid is used. These are such delicate pieces of glass that I'm afraid of using the wrong solvent and damaging the optics. I've read somewhere that a little bit of acetone on a cotton swab would be adequate, what does your collective mind think? I have access to lab-grade IPA and Xylene, but the acetone that I have is just the regular drugstore type. Removing the prisms from they are now is out of the question, as I would have no idea how to realign them.

Also, does anyone know how to remove the optical path selection knob on a Nikon Q head (I'm assuming the procedure would be the same for other Nikon trinoc heads with a knob/rod selector). Trying to unscrew the knob gets me nowhere, as the knob turns and turns but remains attached, and without removing it I cannot have proper access to the bottom prisms and lenses.

Again, sorry for the highjack, but this question seemed relevant to the current topic. Any hints would be much appreciated.

P

Choronzon
Posts: 384
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:14 am
Location: Chicago USA

Post by Choronzon »

Retro wrote: Upon inspection it was observed that only one surface was defective. Do you suppose the octagonal prism was once a half-silvered mirror? If so will the performance of the bino-head be seriously affected without the ion deposit?
Jim
Like I said, if the half silvered portion is mucked up, it's junk. It's not worth trying to re-silver it, hoping to get the rario correct, especially when good ones are cheap and plentifull.
http://cgi.ebay.com/AO-AMERICAN-OPTICAL ... 1e5afc5965
Plus, you would have to deal with the previous butcher job of alignment, and your own re-alignment.
I have repaired microscopes for 40+years, and have seen many a hack job. This one is not worth wasting another dime on.
I am not young enough to know everything.

g4lab
Posts: 1437
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 11:07 am

Post by g4lab »

I think Choronzon is generally correct. If you can buy a usable substitute
for $42 delivered that is what you should do. Then your scope will work and
you can continue to play with this head at your leisure should you care to do so.

You could not get a 50 50 silvering job done for less than that.
Where I work we do have some gear for doing thin film coatings but I have not yet worked enough miracles for the physics department to be given unrestricted access to those labs yet. And when that does happen I don't know what the current condition of the gear is because the professor who used to run them just retired. I have some spectrophotometer mirrors I want to resilver and if I get that far I will PM you and see if I can help.

But in the mean time pop for that $42 one and have a scope that works.

You can polish the bad prism face with cerium oxide on a clean finger tip with water as a lubricant.

For cleaning the Nikon prism housing, I would use reagent IPA. Stay away from drugstore acetone because it usually has too much water.

Xylene is generally too strong to use around prisms. If you do decide to use it make sure it can't run. The coatings themselves don't much care which solvent you use. But the cements might especially if they should run.

Wet a preferably lint free swab and squeeze it out so it doesn't get so much on the prism that it can run to the edges or seams and capillary action in between which would put you into the same boat as RetroJim.

Choronzon
Posts: 384
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:14 am
Location: Chicago USA

Post by Choronzon »

PauloM wrote: Also, does anyone know how to remove the optical path selection knob on a Nikon Q head (I'm assuming the procedure would be the same for other Nikon trinoc heads with a knob/rod selector). Trying to unscrew the knob gets me nowhere, as the knob turns and turns but remains attached, and without removing it I cannot have proper access to the bottom prisms and lenses.
P
Paulo, can you post a photo of the Nikon Q head you're referring to? I'm sure I've been through one , but don't recognize the designation. For the Optophot Labophot series?
I am not young enough to know everything.

PauloM
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 4:49 am
Location: Portugal

Post by PauloM »

g4lab: thanks for your tip reg. the solvents.

choronzon:

It's a Nikon Quadrocular (sp?) head, for the Optiphot/Labophot, yes.
There also was a later model Q2, for the (opti/labo)phot-2 microscopes,
but I believe this is the original Q one.

I won't have access to it until monday, but one was recently sold on ebay, so i'm just going to help myself to that head's pictures.

The head:

Image

Closeup of the knob/rob that needs removing:

Image

My first thought was that I would have to turn it to "unscrew" it. But, turn as I may, it stays put. Also, when the knob's in the OUT position it feels rather wobbly, not sure if that's the expected behavior.

Retro
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:15 pm
Location: Scarborough, Ontario

Post by Retro »

Excuse me for cutting in PauloM...

Chorozon wrote:
Is there a half silvered mirror beneath that looks mucked up? If that half silvered portion is damaged, it's dumpster fodder
What you said in that post went right over my head I thought you were referring to the diagonal mirror in the frame under the splitter. I had no idea there would be a pellicle mirror surface on the beam splitter itself.
That AO head you pointed out looks great (Series 10 I think) but there might be a problem with compatibility... some pic's

Image
Image

From what is visible on the series 10, the tube lens is flush and the eye tubes are longer. The green marker on mine highlights the flats on the Ø1.980" dovetail and the tube lens is Ø1.055" x 1.035" high with a very small SHSS holding the optical assembly in place.
Do you think there's a chance it would work if I machined the flats in?

Gene, I'm going to gamble that the splitter will work sufficiently well without the Aluminizing, based on how much brighter the image is compared to my other "Grey 150". Even after I RE & RE'd the splitter cage the first time the image was surprisingly clear. If I find myself looking into my own eyeball when finished then a new tack is in order.
What's left is to find some glues to rig it back up.

I'll take some pictures through the scope when/if it's all patched-up.
Jim

edit: The finish on the Jung head is actually an off-white colour.

lothman
Posts: 966
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:00 am
Location: Stuttgart/Germany

Post by lothman »

PauloM wrote:What's the safest way to clean those prisms? I've tried blowing the dust off with some success, but there are some stubborn specs that look like they won't come off unless some liquid is used.
If you have acces to the prisms, then using a film stripp off solution might be best. You also can leave the dried film until assembly and peel it off after assembly and dust blowing. It works really well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoWLoz4JKZI

Harold Gough
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Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:17 am
Location: Reading, Berkshire, England

Post by Harold Gough »

Retro wrote:Fantastic! That is the type of practical information I can use Gene.
Me too. I have Wild M20 which needs at least one prism resilvered. I found someone to do that but they will not remove or refit the prism.

Thanks.

Hrold
My images are a medium for sharing some of my experiences: they are not me.

PauloM
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 4:49 am
Location: Portugal

Post by PauloM »

Retro wrote:Excuse me for cutting in PauloM...
It is I who should be apologizing for having cut in your thread.
With hindsight, I should have probably started a new one.
lothman wrote:If you have acces to the prisms, then using a film stripp off solution might be best. You also can leave the dried film until assembly and peel it off after assembly and dust blowing. It works really well.
That's a good idea. I was familiar with using those solutions for cleaning DSLR sensors, but had never thought about applying them to prisms or mirrors.
Those solutions use the same cleaning method as some facial masks use to remove gunk from clogged pores. I wonder if my wife has some of that around the house...

Choronzon
Posts: 384
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:14 am
Location: Chicago USA

Post by Choronzon »

PauloM wrote: My first thought was that I would have to turn it to "unscrew" it. But, turn as I may, it stays put. Also, when the knob's in the OUT position it feels rather wobbly, not sure if that's the expected behavior.
Oh, thats not good. Yes the Optiphot Labophot series trinoc heads all have the same selector rod design; namely screwed into the aluminium prism mount, which slides on a dovetail mated to the bottom mounting plate.No way to remove the bottom plate for cleaning acess, unless the rod is unscrewed. Furthermore, that rod is glued into the block with "Three Bond" or clear nail polish type glue. A heat gun on the rod softens the bond so it can be unscrewed. However, yours has stripped the aluminium prism mount threads. Either through overtightening, or forcing it without softening the glue and forcing the removal, the threads have been striped internally, not allowing the rod to unscrew. The rod itself has a relief in diameter between the end threaded portion, and the actual rod dia itself that is smaller than both. So the threads are holding the glued on stripped aluminuim from the prism block, but it can't unscrew past the intact part of aluminium block threads where the relief of the rod is.. You can try heat on the rod to soften the glued on remnats of aluminium, then pulling while unscrewing, but the sad fact is, the prism block is stripped. If you get it apart, and everything gets cleaned up and cleaned out, you might be able to cement the rod back in with some Araldite epoxy, but then you're done, it's not coming apart, ever again. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I've seen this twice before, and the correct fix is to buy a new prism mount, and remount the main prism in it, but don't plan on these still being available from Nikon any longer.
I am not young enough to know everything.

Choronzon
Posts: 384
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:14 am
Location: Chicago USA

Post by Choronzon »

Retro wrote: What you said in that post went right over my head I thought you were referring to the diagonal mirror in the frame under the splitter. I had no idea there would be a pellicle mirror surface on the beam splitter itself.
That AO head you pointed out looks great (Series 10 I think) but there might be a problem with compatibility... some pic's
I see what you mean about the compatability. Although, in theory, because this is an infinity system we're dealing with, the position of the tube lens in the head should make no difference whatsoever. But you and I both know what they say about theories. :lol:
Here's what I would do. I believe the internal part you need is the same, however, I would make this guy an offer (low), and if you can't use the splitter, or the head won't work, return it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/AO-Americal-Optical ... 5d28a400b0
If you take the tube cluster off when you get it, and quickly swap the splitter prism for the bad one, you should know rather quickly if it's the same or not.
I am not young enough to know everything.

Retro
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:15 pm
Location: Scarborough, Ontario

Post by Retro »

I believe the internal part you need is the same
After looking at that nice head you linked, I started pouring over the schematics for the Series 10 and the 150 for a couple of hours. They are pretty ambiguous because they include the linkages for the trinocular configurations all mixed in. The series 10 splitter mount does not have the 45° frame section. It's very difficult to see how the mechanism works but it occurred to me that when the tube prism swings out of the way the eyepiece light has to be blocked. So... that might be the reason for the splitter mirror.

The AO 150 drawing has a lot of mystery linkages in it also... so, I took the 150 apart the see whats going on.
Ha! you'll get a chuckle out of this... as the eye tubes move back and forth, the Tube Lens goes up and down and there is No mirror on the octagonal splitter surface.
I always suspected that this Reichart-Jung with its printed objectives and 100% spackle coating (even the X,Y unit), was cobbled together from a mix of bits and pieces by the new owners.
Some pic's of the old "Grey" Model 150...
Tube Lens Lever
Image

Tube Lens
Image

Splitter *Note octagon sides visible
Image

I really appreciate you spending so much of your time helping me work this through Chorozon but the thing is, if I do buy another AO head it will be a trinocular one for my 5 hole model 110.

Jim

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