Like a kid on Christmas day

A forum to ask questions, post setups, and generally discuss anything having to do with photomacrography and photomicroscopy.

Moderators: rjlittlefield, ChrisR, Chris S., Pau

Carl_Constantine
Posts: 304
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:02 am
Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Contact:

Like a kid on Christmas day

Post by Carl_Constantine »

That's how I feel. My new Macro Lens is finally in at my local supplier and I'm going to go pick it up tonight. I picked this lens because it has good reviews and has a good price (in fact I saved $50 because I bought my Canon 40D from that supplier).

So now, I'm giddy and can't concentrate on my work until I get this lens in my grubby little paws and start some TRUE MACRO shots. So this brings me to my question. I'm probably going to start with simple macro shots (no stacking) of things like flowers and bugs and such like. But I really want to do some stacking ASAP, but I don't have a mill table or anything of the sort of the rigs that I've seen pictures of on this forum :cry:.

So, to do a stack, I need a stable surface to move the camera (whole thing not just lens right?) or the object of my stack closer a small amount at a time. Additionally, I want to lock my lens in the first focused position, and then do a number of shots.

Is this procedure correct or am I missing something?
Carl B. Constantine

DaveW
Posts: 1702
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:29 am
Location: Nottingham, UK

Post by DaveW »

See this one for a simple first stack Carl:-

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=61316

DaveW

rjlittlefield
Site Admin
Posts: 23601
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:34 am
Location: Richland, Washington State, USA
Contact:

Post by rjlittlefield »

Any of those approaches will work.

Or to get started, you might want to just lock everything down tight with camera on tripod and focus by tweaking the focus ring on your lens.

See again http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... .php?t=290 and the method described at http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... .php?t=291.

--Rik

rjlittlefield
Site Admin
Posts: 23601
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:34 am
Location: Richland, Washington State, USA
Contact:

Post by rjlittlefield »

DaveW wrote:See this one for a simple first stack Carl:-

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=61316
I beg to differ. "Simple" is not at all the right word for that stack of LordV's.

The images are significantly misaligned, especially regarding subject versus background from frame to frame. This is a result of shooting hand-held.

If you feed those images into Helicon Focus or Zerene Stacker with default parameters, you will get a result that is obviously trash. CombineZP produces a result that looks much better on first glance, but on closer study it turns out to have grave problems also.

The only way to get a good result from those three source images is to either do significant retouching or to use a manual alignment procedure as shown in LordV's tutorial. Picking proper control points for manual alignment is a bit of an art form, and none of the major stacking tools except CombineZP allows it at all.

LordV shoots a lot of hand-held stacks in the field. He's very good at it, and his approach works well for short stacks after you get good at the manual alignment procedure.

But simple it's not. I strongly recommend against shooting hand-held when you're getting started.

--Rik

Edit: to explain more fully the problem and approaches to solving it.

DaveW
Posts: 1702
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:29 am
Location: Nottingham, UK

Post by DaveW »

I was not linking to the article for hand holding Rik, since I believe that at beyond 2X-3X magnification hand holding is a bit pointless anyway since it does not produce very good results, but simply the part describing using the camera on a tripod and the focusing ring instead of a focusing slide for limited image number low magnification stacks. However I think a focusing slide is always best if possible?

DaveW

rjlittlefield
Site Admin
Posts: 23601
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:34 am
Location: Richland, Washington State, USA
Contact:

Post by rjlittlefield »

DaveW wrote:However I think a focusing slide is always best if possible?
No. It depends on the magnification and to some extent on the particular lenses involved.

At magnifications much less than 1:1 it is better to focus by using the ring on the lens, while at magnifications much greater than 1:1 it is better to focus by moving either the subject or the lens+camera.

If you think in terms of a "thin lens" model, then the rule becomes this: focus by changing the shortest distance.

Less than 1:1, the shortest distance is between lens and camera, so change that by turning the focus ring. Greater than 1:1, the shortest distance is between lens and subject, so change that by moving the subject or the lens+camera.

At magnifications approaching 1:1 from the low side, the focusing slide is still more practical even though theoretically not as good, simply because you can make finer movements with the slide than with the focus ring.

With a lens on bellows, moving the subject or lens+camera becomes better at somewhat lower magnifications. The theory behind this is a bit complicated, but suffice it to say that at exactly 1:1, changing the bellows extension only changes magnification, not focus!

--Rik

NikonUser
Posts: 2693
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:03 am
Location: southern New Brunswick, Canada

Post by NikonUser »

Rik wrote:
"at exactly 1:1, changing the bellows extension only changes magnification, not focus!"

This sounds like an oxymoron.
Assuming a mag. of exactly 1:1, than as soon as you make a minuscule change in the bellows extension the magnification is no longer exactly 1:1 and therefore focus has to change!
NU.
student of entomology
Quote – Holmes on ‘Entomology’
” I suppose you are an entomologist ? “
” Not quite so ambitious as that, sir. I should like to put my eyes on the individual entitled to that name.
No man can be truly called an entomologist,
sir; the subject is too vast for any single human intelligence to grasp.”
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr
The Poet at the Breakfast Table.

Nikon camera, lenses and objectives
Olympus microscope and objectives

rjlittlefield
Site Admin
Posts: 23601
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:34 am
Location: Richland, Washington State, USA
Contact:

Post by rjlittlefield »

Rik wrote:
"at exactly 1:1, changing the bellows extension only changes magnification, not focus!"

This sounds like an oxymoron.
Nonetheless it is correct, at least if you believe in calculus.

Assume thin lens model, 1/f = 1/o + 1/i, and start differentiating. What you will discover is that exactly at 1:1, the derivative of i+o with respect to i is zero, while the derivative of m=i/o is not.

In other words, the image of the subject remains stubbornly focused on the sensor, even though its size is changing!

You can easily set up a physical experiment to confirm this result. Simply place a lens between subject and sensor and adjust the distances such that the magnification is exactly 1:1 and the subject is focused. Then move the lens back and forth. What you will see is that you can move the lens quite a large distance and hardly change the focus at all.

People who spent a lot of time in darkrooms working with enlargers around 1:1 quickly discovered the practical implications of this surprising result. When you're at 1:1, and you turn the "focus" knob on the enlarger, the image doesn't change focus, it only changes size. To focus, one has to leave the focus knob alone and move the whole enlarger head up and down.

Modern macro lenses avoid this problem by changing focal length, not by just extending a fixed focal length lens. The result is that you can still crisply focus a typical macro lens at 1:1 just by turning the magnification/focus ring, while leaving the camera and subject in fixed positions. If the lens focused entirely by extension, this would not work.

--Rik

ChrisR
Site Admin
Posts: 8671
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:58 am
Location: Near London, UK

Post by ChrisR »

WHat happens is you shorten the image distance, and the object distance increases, at about the same rate, so the sensor to subject distance stays about the same.
eg for a 50mm lens, if
101 + 99 = 200
99 + 101 is also 200
Magnification has gone from 101/99 to 99/101 though.

I feel a spreadsheet coming on.... maybe tomorrow.

Edit :
Ah, Rik has Written. It's what He said :D

ChrisR
Site Admin
Posts: 8671
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:58 am
Location: Near London, UK

Post by ChrisR »

They always said your best photos were in your head, between the time you took them and when you developed the film.

My best idea for cheapskate macro is in the same abyss.
A Cokin filter holder, eg at http://www.cokin.co.uk/photos/extring.jpg

That shows one with extension rings , which I've never seen, but I have a holder, somewhere.
My 55mm 2.8 macro lens' front element is deeply set, and if you put it onto tubes the subject comes very close to the lens. Well within the range of a coathanger-derived mount which could be made to clip into the Cokin holder.

Things depend on the construction of your lens, but in my case the lens grows from both ends as you focus closer. That means I'm changing the image distance and the object distance at the same time, which is a little boggling.
That oddity aside, if you fix your subject to the lens filter thread, stability problems are at least partially addressed.
However, if your lens focuses like an ordinary prime, ie it moves forwards wholesale, then you're effectively only moving the sensor, relatively speaking. That, as Rik has just pointed out, isn't the BEST approach, but it works.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic