1-5x macro lens

George · Post by **George** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:23 pm

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and I'm quite overwhelmed by the amount of information provided.:-)

I'm looking for a macro setup for around 1-5x. MP-E 65mm seems to fit the bill but I'm still wondering if there could be a better setup. Here're my conditions:

- Studio environment
- Non-moving object
- Don't really care for price as long as it is not more than MP-E
- Readily available as new
- Low distorted proportion of subjects
- My preference for camera body is Nikon and then Canon DSLR
- Will be performing stacking

I saw some amazing pictures Nikkor 50mm EL reversed on bellows and I'm also wondering if this can produce such sharp images over wide range of magnifications.

Thanks,

George

lauriek · Post by **lauriek** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:07 pm

Certainly you can get up to around 4:1 at least with a bellows and 50mm prime. Add a little extra extension with a tube or two and I'm sure 5:1 is doable... (Magnification = Extension / Focal length. Most bellows go to around 200mm of extension...)

Does it have to be new? You can get some great old bellows/lenses on ebay/keh... You could save a load! Sure get a new camera but have a look at the prices for second hand but excellent conditions stuff - My 50, an OM50/1.8 cost about $15 inc p&p and it's /great/ reversed on the front of my [second hand] bellows!!

I've no experience with Canon/Nikon DSLRs or the MPE (though I would sure like to give that lens a tryout!!) - so I can't really comment much more on your questions...

g4lab · Post by **g4lab** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:01 pm

There is a new Nikon 85mm PC (perspective control)Micro Nikkor. It costs $929.00. It has gotten good revues but I haven't played with one yet. In case you already have Nikon bodies.

Scheimpflug anybody??

http://www.naturfotograf.com/85ts_review.html

What will you be shooting?
If your specimen isn't moving you could use a Leaf MicroLumina or an Agfa Studio Cam which are scanning cameras with Nikon mounts. Capable of large file sizes . each pixel sampled in all three colors, full frame.

George · Post by **George** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:06 pm

Sorry, I should have also said that I'm looking for DSLR solution for other general purposes as well.

The subjects will be micro structures (in mm size) for research.

I'm not sure if I would need perspective control and it will be difficult to get 4-5x magnification with 85mm PC.

Lauriek, how is the image quality with your 50mm at 1-2x? I see lots of good pictures at higher magnifications, but I could not find any samples at lower magnifications. People tend to use their macro lenses for that and I do not want to invest in both setups. :-)

lauriek · Post by **lauriek** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:12 pm

I think most of my work with the 50 has been at >3:1 but I did do some narcissus shots which were at minimum bellows extension and I did not see any issues at all... I would think they were around 1:1 or a tad over..

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... =narcissus

ETA:

I should just say, if your other photo interests include >1:1 work with bugs in the wild then the MPE is probably the way to go, but budget for a macro flash or an off camera flash setup as well as the camera & lens in that case... You can also use a macro flash in your stacking setup, I use mine for both.

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:40 pm

Can you say more about your concerns for "Low distorted proportion of subjects"?

It's possible that what you want is called "telecentric" optics.

A lens system that is telecentric on the subject side has the useful properties that magnification does not change with distance and perspective does not change with lens position(!).

Commercial telecentric lenses are expensive, but it's surprisingly easy to put together homebrew combinations that work just fine for small subjects (mm size).

See http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... php?t=1472 and the earlier discussions that are linked from it.

--Rik

George · Post by **George** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:57 pm

I didn't know a proper terminology to describe, but basically I do not want to get a warped image of a straight structure. I read somewhere that at higher magnifications and very close working distances, it might be a problem.

One of the reasons MPE interest me is that if I get interested in macro photography of bugs, it will be a very elegant setup to carry around.:-)

One question for you, lauriek. What would be the success rate of stacking images with just a tripod and a focusing rail at 5x?

Thanks.

augusthouse · Post by **augusthouse** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:54 pm

Hi George,

Low distorted proportion of subjects

I assume you are referring to 'Curvature of Field Aberration' and basically you want a flat image from edge to edge up to a desired magnification.

The EL-Nikkor 50/2.8 reversed produces excellent results when used with a bellows or extention tubes. If you don't have one of those lenses then I would buy one anyway, as you will definitely use it (many times) at some stage and they are extremely affordable.

The Canon MP-E 65mm requires a Canon DSLR. There have been some interesting discussions on the forum lately in regard to the Canon 40D - definitely worth looking at. I have one on my shopping list. I will find the links and add to this thread.

Gene wrote:

Scheimpflug anybody??

Don't mind if I do. Interesting article - good read. I want one of those too.

Craig

George · Post by **George** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:21 pm

Two cameras that I'm considering are Nikon D300 and Canon 40D. I wish 40D had little more pixels. Hopefully, 50D will be released soon :-)

augusthouse · Post by **augusthouse** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:30 pm

Some links to other threads:

www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4923
www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5006

www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3337

I found this helpful also:
www.vividlight.com/articles/2914.htm

DaveW · Post by **DaveW** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:29 pm

The FX sensored Nikon D700 is out soon but expensive!

http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Nikon ... /D700.html

Virtually a DX sensored D300's body, but with the D3's full frame 12 Megapixel sensor with it's larger pixel sites with lower pixel density meaning less noise.

As has been said a reversed enlarger lens on bellows works well.

DaveW

Harold Gough · Post by **Harold Gough** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:40 pm

It seems to me that George is refering to barrel distortion, as produced by fisheye lenses. It would be surprising to find any significant amount of this in a high quality macro lens of any make.

Flatfield is about getting everything (the outer regions being problematic with an uncorrected lens) in the plane of the subject, i.e. parallel to the film/sensor plane, in focus on the film/sensor.

Harold

rovebeetle · Post by **rovebeetle** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:54 am

The cheapest solution is most likely the combination of a bellows and an enlarger lens. Even not reversed this will allow a ratio of more than life size.
These enlarger lenses are cheap nowadays, especially the EL-Nikkors, but also the (slightly better but somewhat more expensive) Rodenstock APO-Rodagons.
These lenses are perfectly flat-field and optically excellent.

I use a 75mm EL-Nikkor on a Novoflex bellows for less than life size or up to 3:1. For larger magnifications I use (or better - used to use

) Leitz Photars (12.5 and 25 mm), but these are hard to come by these days, and when then they are expensive (same with Zeiss Luminars). The Macro-Nikkors are even rarer. But, as has been mentioned before, you can always reverse-mount an enlarger lens on a bellows.

Cheers

rovebeetle · Post by **rovebeetle** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:02 am

g4lab wrote:There is a new Nikon 85mm PC (perspective control)Micro Nikkor. It costs $929.00. It has gotten good revues but I haven't played with one yet. In case you already have Nikon bodies.

Scheimpflug anybody??

http://www.naturfotograf.com/85ts_review.html

What will you be shooting?
If your specimen isn't moving you could use a Leaf MicroLumina or an Agfa Studio Cam which are scanning cameras with Nikon mounts. Capable of large file sizes . each pixel sampled in all three colors, full frame.

What you are referring to is the "old" 85PC. Nikon has introduced a new version (together with the 24mm PC-E and 45 mm PC-E). The "E" means that these lenses have now an electromagnetic aperture control - vs manually stopping down in the old one.

I have the "old" one and it is an optical gem - as Bjørn Rørslett states. I make most of my 1:2 shots with it - if I want 1:1, I add the Canon 500D diopter.

The new ones are even better due to the more modern coating.

BTW - did I mention that I am a tilt/shift addict

?

Cheers

DaveW · Post by **DaveW** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:31 am

The newer ones have tilt and shift, as Canon ones have had for many years, whereas the original PC Nikkors only had shift.

http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/co ... /index.htm

DaveW