How to use old Vivitar 283 flashguns with a DSLR?

Planapo · Post by **Planapo** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:28 pm

Some time ago I collected a handful

of old Vivitar 283 flashguns for a reasonable price that I would like to use as a sort of "studio" flash light for macro table top work. And now I am looking how I can trigger at least two of these electronic flashes safely and simultaneously with my Canon 400D.

For the wired solution with cables, I think I need a protection device against high trigger voltage such as a wein safe sync adapter, but I don´t know what sync cables and switch to get that will work with the 400D and the 283 flashguns.

Additionally, I would want to put an older Minolta 80 PX ring flash to some use which has no socket to insert a plug from such a cable. But if I figured out correctly in this case there are socket-providing adapters that will fit to the mounting foot of that flash. But what sort of adapter should I look for?

Or should I go for a wireless solution?
What kind/brand of parts do I need for the one or the other way? Can anybody of you recommend equipment required and where to get it from?

Any of your input or links how to get this working are welcome.

Thanks in advance from
--Betty
who is looking forward to read your lines.

DaveW · Post by **DaveW** » Fri May 16, 2008 2:58 pm

I presume these guns will be too old to be able to use TTL flash control from the camera so you will be working fully manual and have no need for any connection to the camera, so why not simply use optical slaves on them set of by one flash on a lead or in the cameras hotshoe?

http://cgi.cafr.ebay.ca/Flash-Slave-Tri ... dZViewItem

http://www.teamworkphoto.com/index.php? ... page=index

DaveW

Charles Krebs · Post by **Charles Krebs** » Fri May 16, 2008 6:06 pm

Betty,

The 400D does not have a "PC" cord outlet, only the "hot-shoe" on top of the camera. So you will need either a Wein Safe Sync (about $50, and frankly some people have problems with it working at all) or a simple adapter like the one shown on eBay # 310050367988.

Now, the reason for the Wein Safe Sync is that some of the older flash units (and studio flash) have very high "trigger voltages" and some of the earlier digital cameras could not handle it....

But the newer DSLR's are much better in this regard. If you want to know if you can do without the Wein Safe Sync, you will need to measure the voltage of the flash that will connected to the camera. This can be done with a basic multi-meter when the flash is powered up, but not attached to the camera. (The round contact in the base is "+", the negative contact is tucked away in the groove that slides onto the camera shoe). There have been reports of huge variations in these older Vivitars. While I have seen reports of over 500 volts, the highest I have personally measured was about 170 volts, but most of my 283 units are far less. (Measure it! Don't try to guess based on serial number or country of manufacture).

The flash shoes on current Canon DSLR models can work with units up to 250 volts. (You can find this in your 400D instruction manual. And the only warning given is that the flash might not work).

Also, see these "threads":
(The most important parts are the beginning and end of the second link).
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read. ... e=13042207
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-m ... nified_p=1

Once you have a "PC" outlet you can use a cord to your Vivitars. If you want to go directly into the flash, realize that the 283 and 285 have a proprietary style plug. See eBay # 200224512319 for a good picture, (although this cord is too short for most purposes). A more suitable length cord can be seen at eBay # 350059377559. You can also find cheap "hot-shoe" adapters with a length of wire attached that ends in a PC connector. (I'll check later for a picture of those).

For the other flash units I would strongly recommend a simple "slave" unit. I use a couple of these (eBay # 310028968394) and they work well with my Vivitar flash units. (I have communicated with one other photographer who purchased some cheap Chinese flash-slave units that would not work, but I don't know which ones he purchased

). These also give you a 1/4-20 socket on the bottom so it is easy to mount the flash to a stand. Be aware that like most simple slave units these will "fire" with any flash pulse they "see". So they can't be triggered properly by Nikon or Canon ETTL auto flash units unless they are used in a manual mode. That is because both these systems (and perhaps others) use a low level pre-flash for "auto" metering purposes and this is enough to trip the slaved flash units. When used in manual mode there is no pre-flash. Unfortunately on your 400D I don't believe you can set the built-in flash to operate manually. On cameras where this can be done, an option is to set the built-in flash to the lowest manual setting, and use that to trigger all other "slaved" flash units.

DaveW · Post by **DaveW** » Sat May 17, 2008 12:30 am

There is a flash slave Charles and Betty that will ignore pre flashes with digital cameras. See the Firefly 3:-

http://www.fireflyelectronics.co.uk/

DaveW

Charles Krebs · Post by **Charles Krebs** » Sat May 17, 2008 7:58 am

Dave,

I'm also aware of at least one other flash-slave that will work with "pre-flashes":
http://www.adorama.com/SUDSUWP.html?sea ... &item_no=1

I have used this Sunpak to fire a remote (off camera, non-TTL) background, flash when the main "exposure" light was E-TTL at the camera/lens. It can actually be set to "ignore" more than one pre-flash. Apparently some systems use more than a single pre-flash (don't know which). Worked pretty much as advertised... except it would not fire a Nikon SB-800 when I tried to use that flash as the "manual" background light. Other than that, it has been a good solution to an otherwise vexing problem.

Planapo · Post by **Planapo** » Mon May 19, 2008 2:28 am

Thanks Charlie and Dave, for your very helpful answers! Now, I see some options and know what parts to get.

Measure it! Don't try to guess based on serial number or country of manufacture.

Aye Sir, I´ve measured it, Sir!

And I´ve got three different values on the mounting foot of three different units: 107 V, 104 V, 94 V.
A question that rises, when considering the use of the pc cable outlet on the Vivitar , is: Are the voltages on a Vivitar´s mounting foot the same as those on a Vivitar´s shutter cord socket?
I would expect so, at least the voltage on the mounting foot of the proprietary "remote sensor cord" (where the sensor can be stuck in to take the flash gun itself off the camera) when installed, is the same as on the foot of the flash gun itself (I measured one unit, the one with 94 V).

Now, if a 283 in manual mode will be triggered by the camera when using the proprietary long "remote sensor cord, I could use this cable as a long remote cable with its already attached mounting foot mounted onto the camera to trigger one unit, and trigger further off camera units by those optical slave sensors you gave the link to, couldn´t I?!

But then in my manual (German) for the 400D I could not find that a voltage of up to 250 V is safe, I just found a passage where it says (p. 152, translated):
"When using the camera together with a third-party flash gun or third party flash accessories, malfunctions or damage to the camera is possible." And: "Do not mount a high voltage flash gun onto the camera´s hot-shoe, because under certain circumstances it may not be triggered."

(Additionally, I measured another little old Agfa flashgun I have, and this one has only 6.5 V on the mounting foot, so in some cases I could use this one as a trigger flash since it emits no pre-flash in manual mode.
However, in other cases , like when I want to use the Vivitars for my darkfield shots , I reckon, a trigger flash from the direction of the camera could be tricky to use or counterproductive.)

--Betty

DaveW · Post by **DaveW** » Mon May 19, 2008 4:03 am

Hi Betty,

There is some information here but it may be conflicting.

http://www.botzilla.com/photo/strobeVolts.html

0n one site it claims:-

"As mentioned earlier in this review, the 20D can support a flash trigger voltage up to 250v (vs. 6v on the 10D and 300D) due to the use of a semiconductor switch rather than depending on a mechanical contact. "

Whereas one contributor says that Canon USA told him the 20D could only support 6v! It seems that many of the camera manufacturers and their agents have not got their acts together regarding trigger voltages and you get a different answer depending who you ask.

The link below says under "Trigger Circuit Voltage" if you scroll down it:-

"Note that this 6 volt limit sometimes applies to PC sockets and sometimes doesn’t, depending on the specific product. Canon state that the 1D, 20D, 20Da and 5D digital cameras are capable of withstanding trigger voltages of up to 250 volts when firing flash units with their PC sockets. The 6 volt limit applies to the camera hotshoe only. Unfortunately Canon don’t always state what trigger voltage the PC sockets on all of its PC-socket-equipped cameras can withstand, so if this information is not supplied in the manual you should probably contact Canon or avoid the risk altogether and use a voltage-limiting adapter."

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html

There therefore seems to be some confusion then whether if you use the PC socket, which is mainly designed for triggering studio flash units, whether this will stand higher voltages than the hot shoe intended for small portable dedicated ones.

DaveW

Harold Gough · Post by **Harold Gough** » Mon May 19, 2008 5:36 am

You can get a remote sensor cable as an accessory for the 283. This is intended to go on the hot shoe to meter the flash (for light output for a given aperture). The sensor from the from of the flashgun unplugs to go into the extension. Whether you could get a setup (two sensor cables?) to work for two units is another matter.

The 283 is very good but never had any dedicated function.

Harold

Planapo · Post by **Planapo** » Tue May 20, 2008 2:07 pm

Harold - yes those cables I was refering to, have already some of them and measured 94 V on the contacts to be mounted onto the camera´s hot shoe.

Dave - thanks for pointing at this confusion about where the 250 V would be safe or where not.
I did a bit of Net-surfing myself and found a newer thread http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00KhZK

There at the end one comes up with a reply he claims he got from canon.uk:

"Dear Customer,

Thank you for your recent enquiry regarding your Canon product.

Please be advised that all DSLR cameras in the current range support a 6 volts trigger voltage on the hot shoe and a 250 volts trigger voltage on the PC-sync socket. Neither the EOS 400D or the EOS 350D have a PC-sync socket so the maximum trigger voltage is 6 volts.

Yours sincerely,

Canon Support Centre"

I further read on some places elsewhere, but that might be a myth, that a high voltage put on the camera´s mounting foot would not instantly show damage, but would gradually be damaging parts of the camera with repeated use. I would never have expected that.

Well, at the moment I don´t dare to connect a 283 directly to the 400D.

During my net search I came across those radio controlled triggers:
http://dpanswers.com/radio_flash.html
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... :IT&ih=011

Maybe they would be an option. With no direct contact of the 283 to the camera, there would be no risk and additionally, since radio, no trigger flash bouncing and disturbing darkfield illumination.

Simply too much information out there to sift through. I am still dizzy from all that cross-reading.

--Betty

Charles Krebs · Post by **Charles Krebs** » Tue May 20, 2008 8:38 pm

Betty,

There are several reasons for the confusion. At one time there was a low voltage limit (6 volts) with Canon SLR's, and cameras were damaged (for DSLR's that would be 300D, 10D, and most --but not all--older models). And there were also some instances where the side PC connector could handle more voltage than the hot-shoe (not sure if this was a Canon thing or some other brand). There are many messages floating around the internet that are not dated and contain older info, or simply misinformation. Add to that the fact that even some Canon employees who should know are clueless... witness the canon.uk reply you quoted above. (BTW... the gentleman I referred to earlier, Chuck Westfall, is the opposite. I've conversed with him on occasion since the mid 80's, and he is the most knowledgeable individual I have ever met when it comes to Canon tech stuff. He has been employed by Canon for over 25 years and has been an invaluable resource and asset for all "tech" Canon subjects!)

In Canon, starting with the Canon 20D (introduced in August 2004, two years before the Rebel XTi... aka 400D), all Canon DSLR's changed from using a mechanical (wire) contact to an electronic switch in the flash trigger circuitry, and that increased the trigger voltage handling capability to 250 volts.

Read this official Canon Press Release from for the 20D from 2004:
(The sync voltage info is in the section entitled "New High Speed Shutter" about 1/2 way down the page)
http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/p ... s_20d.html

From a 350D/20D Comparison review:

Canon have recently stated that the Digital Rebel XT does in fact share the 250v sync voltage with the 20D and other high end Canon EOS bodies.

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/di ... s_20d.html

And the clincher for me, from a Chuck Westfall (Canon USA) column:
http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0703/tech-tips.html

Question posed to Chuck Westfall: I recently posted a question regarding the safe maximum sync voltage for an EOS 30D on http://www.openphotographyforums.com/. A reply led me to an article called Tech Tips answering a number of Canon-related FAQ. You addressed the safe sync voltage for a number of models, including the 20D, but I was wondering where I might be able to find published data on the safe sync voltages for the entire range of Canon cameras (or maybe just the 30D, as that's the body I'm using now).

Answer: It's likely you'll never see an official list of all Canon SLRs according to this specification, because Canon Inc. (our parent company in Japan) simply doesn't do things like that. I've been with Canon USA since 1982, so I'm in a pretty good position to know Canon Inc.'s habits. However, I'll be happy to provide you with my unofficial list:

Canon Digital SLRs safe for TCV up to 250 volts:
EOS-1D Mark II N, EOS-1D Mark II, EOS-1Ds Mark II, EOS-1D, EOS-1Ds
EOS 30D, 20D, 5D
EOS Digital Rebel XTi, XT (400D/350D)
EOS D6000/D2000, Kodak DCS560/DCS520 (circa 1998)
EOS-DCS series (circa 1995)

Canon Digital SLRs safe for TCV up to 6 volts:
EOS 10D, D60, D30
EOS Digital Rebel (300D)

Canon 35mm SLRs safe for TCV up to 250 volts:
EOS-1V, EOS-1N, EOS-1, EOS 3

Canon 35mm and IX240 SLRs safe for TCV up to 6 volts:
EOS 650, 620, 630, RT
EOS 850, 750, 700
EOS Rebel Series
EOS Elan Series
EOS 10s, A2E, A2
EOS IX, IX Lite
T90

Canon SLRs released earlier than the T90 did not have TTL flash circuits, and comprehensive information on safe TCV levels is not available.

The trigger circuit voltage (TCV) rating for any EOS SLR is the same on the hot shoe as it is on the PC terminal (if the camera has one), but the acceptable TCV level varies according to the camera model. Incidentally, the main reason for the difference is the way the X-sync signal is generated. With the 250V cameras, the X-sync signal is generated electronically. With the 6V cameras, the X-sync signal is generated mechanically. There are no guarantees, but going forward I anticipate that most if not all future EOS SLRs will be safe for TCV up to 250 volts.

I started my photomicrography with a Canon 10D, so the Safe Sync was essential for my Viv 283's. The above column came out long after I had switched to a 350D. I used the same Safe Sync from my 10D days. Had I seen this I would not feel the need for the Safe Sync as long as I had measured the voltage on any flash to be connected, and it was clearly below 250 volts. But because of the 10D I originally used, the SS was already hooked up to the Vivitar flash and I need an adapter to get a PC connector on the 350D.

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Tue May 20, 2008 9:30 pm

Planapo wrote:I further read on some places elsewhere, but that might be a myth, that a high voltage put on the camera´s mounting foot would not instantly show damage, but would gradually be damaging parts of the camera with repeated use. I would never have expected that.

With all the other information, I think we can now understand the part about gradual damage. The "trigger signal" consists essentially of closing a normally open switch between two of the flash contacts. When the switch is mechanical, and the voltage/current is only a moderate overload, the switch contacts will progressively pit. At some point, the pitting becomes so bad that the switch no longer makes contact and stops working.

Speculation, but it fits all the data.

--Rik