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Do they feel pain as we do??
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JoanYoung



Joined: 09 Oct 2007
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Location: South Africa

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:41 am    Post subject: Do they feel pain as we do?? Reply with quote

I was outside and heard something falling and found this beetle lying on his back after coming off the wall. You can see the dent. When I came back and started to take pics, I noticed that his front, right hand side leg was missing a segment. I wonder if they feel the pain of the loss as we do??
I think this is one of the Psammodes beetles (Toktokkies), but cannot find a name again.

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Ken Ramos



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure but I would imagine they feel pain just as much as we do but maybe somewhat differently. I will go out on a limb and say that most things have a nervous system but maybe not all. However, all living things do respond to stimuli in one form or another, be it external to their environment or internal. Think In any case a very nice photo here Joan but would you just look at that dent! "Uh, oh...better call MACO" Wink Very Happy (an american TV commercial for auto repair)
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JoanYoung



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ken. An interesting answer here, one I have always wondered about even though I know a lot of insects can replace limbs which have been lost. He fell from a 4 foot ledge which is a HUGE drop for such a little beetle probably equal to a hundred foot drop to us. Smile
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Jay Barnes



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice photo Joan. Beetles are such interesting subjects for study and photography.

Regarding pain, Thomas Eisner dedicated a few pages (pp. 250-253) to this topic in For Love of Insects.
Eisner wrote:
Quite aside from the issue of consciousness, we came to the conclusion that invertebrates perceive pain, and that their sensory basis for doing so may not be much different from our own. There is therefore good reason for treating invertebrates humanely.

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JoanYoung



Joined: 09 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Jay and welcome to the forum. Doug (Beetleman) in particular has a great love for beetles and I like them too.

Thank you for this interesting piece of information on them. It is sad to think of them feeling any kind of pain at all as they cannot run to a doctor as we can. Sad
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beetleman



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the forums Jay (extending hand out in greeting...I wish they had an emoticon for that) Wink Wonderful patterns on this beetle Joan. I would have to say, because they have an exoskeleton, they can handle a high fall a lot better than us. the dent is in a wing cover and probably does not affect the inner softer layer. I know they feel pain. If you have ever seen an insect near something hot, you can sure tell they want to get away from it ASAP. But you would have to wonder why a beetle would or other insect would fly into a closed window to get out over and over again. Opps, it says they don't have wings Wink
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Danny
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I wonder if they feel the pain of the loss as we do??


I would have to say yes Joan. I agree with Ken. I think its our perception as humans that tell us what to think they feel. Do we have a right to decide what they feel. A very interesting question I've seen more than once and no matter what, I have to say yes. I just have to Wink

Nice shot and amazing colours on this Joan. Well done.

Danny.
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JoanYoung



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doug
Quote:
Wonderful patterns on this beetle Joan. I would have to say, because they have an exoskeleton, they can handle a high fall a lot better than us. the dent is in a wing cover and probably does not affect the inner softer layer. I know they feel pain. If you have ever seen an insect near something hot, you can sure tell they want to get away from it ASAP. But you would have to wonder why a beetle would or other insect would fly into a closed window to get out over and over again. Opps, it says they don't have wings


Thanks Doug. I would think they do too, but like the question "Do animals have thoughts like us?" I have always wondered about it. We definitely need a true Dr Doolittle to answer these questions. Smile

For such a small critter, it was a hang of a distance to fall.
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Joan Young
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JoanYoung



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny
Quote:
Nice shot and amazing colours on this Joan. Well done.


Thanks Danny. How's it going down there? Heading for winter too??

I have so many lovely beetles and insects now that I will be able to post something the whole of our winter without just having to watch others post like I had to last winter. Smile
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Danny
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah not too bad Joan. Summers are getting longer and hotter. Whether thats the global warming or something else I don't know, but we sure do like it Laughing Wink .

All the best over there Joan and keep those shots coming.

Danny.
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JoanYoung



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Danny. I am enjoying the extended summers too. Smile
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Ken Ramos



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just think, summers on Venus are around 275 degrees F. with lots of methane and probably a significant amount of sulpherous and nitric oxides in great abundance. Though I reallly don't know diddly about planetary science, I'm just running off at the keyboard. Laughing
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JoanYoung



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not mnd having summer the whole year around, but I will skip Venus thank you a bit hotter than what I like. Very Happy
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Harold Gough



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoanYoung wrote:
Thanks Ken. An interesting answer here, one I have always wondered about even though I know a lot of insects can replace limbs which have been lost.


Regrowth can go wrong:

http://www.zin.ru/animalia/coleoptera/eng/coraeb7.htm

This is called teratology and I once had a specimen with twin tarsi on one leg.

Harold
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Ken Ramos



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You always seem to have some quite interesting links there Harold, thanks Very Happy
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