Where to mount the camera to the rail used vertically

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RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

Lou Jost wrote:
Vibration is something that is never an issue in my experience when using good technique.
Robert, I think that depends a bit on where one lives. Vibration is always an issue if you live on a busy road with heavy trucks and buses. It is very difficult to control completely.

Never was probably not the best choice of words. Typically I spend almost all of my time with lighting, composition and getting things parallel to the sensor rather than overcoming sharpness loss due to vibration but then again I don't shoot much at 50x - 100x and I also like to blast my subjects with flash anyway :shock: :D


Robert

Adalbert
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Post by Adalbert »

Hello guys,
Many thanks for the hints!
BR, ADi

Adalbert
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Post by Adalbert »

Hi Robert,
also like to blast my subjects with flash anyway
Me too. Usually I flash with 4 YN660 on 1/128 of the power.
BTW, YN660 has only one problem: the battery cover :-(
I have 4 of them. Everyone has a damaged battery cover :-)
BR, ADi

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

Adalbert wrote:Hi Robert,
also like to blast my subjects with flash anyway
Me too. Usually I flash with 4 YN660 on 1/128 of the power.
BTW, YN660 has only one problem: the battery cover :-(
I have 4 of them. Everyone has a damaged battery cover :-)
BR, ADi
It's folks like me who can't use flash and are thus obsessed with things like stiffness, resonances, settling times, and common mode rejection to make my continuous-lighting systems work well.
Last edited by ray_parkhurst on Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

Adalbert wrote:Hi Robert,
also like to blast my subjects with flash anyway
Me too. Usually I flash with 4 YN660 on 1/128 of the power.
BTW, YN660 has only one problem: the battery cover :-(
I have 4 of them. Everyone has a damaged battery cover :-)
BR, ADi
ADi, I believe they sell the spare door covers on Ebay, check!

Just ordered my wife a new Nikon D810 flash memory door cover on Ebay, the factory units fake leather pattern rubber inlays like to fall off after awhile.

Adalbert
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Post by Adalbert »

Hello Ray,
It's folks like me who can't use flash and are thus obsessed with things like stiffness, resonances, settling times, and common mode rejection to make our continuous-lighting systems work well.
No, I cannot imagine that :-) I have more problems with the LED than with the flash.
I have assembled some COB LED’s 30W, but still have some problems with my power supply.
So, I can use them only with the shutter time > 1/50 second. (You know power frequency in the EU is 50 Hz)

BR, ADi

Adalbert
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Post by Adalbert »

Hello Robert,
I believe they sell the spare door covers on Ebay, check!
I know and I have already replaced one but you can only open/close the cover two times and it is damaged :-( This is a wrong construction.
I have some 430EXII from CANON. They are much older than my YN600 but their battery covers work excellent and cannot be damaged.
BR, ADi

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

Flash helps very much to eliminate the effect of vibrations, but there are some things that can't easily be done with flash. This includes especially pixel-shifting photos. Many cameras don't do flash when pixel-shifting. But even for those that do, or those than can be adapted to use flash with the clever controllers invented by people on this forum, flash doesn't remove the effect of vibrations when pixel-shifting. When a camera moves due to vibration when pixel-shifting, the result is that the subframes don't match, and the camera's internal algorithm that synthesizes the final picture will fail, producing diagonal grid patterns. This kind of failure is particularly bad when stacking, since these artifacts are interpreted as sharp detail by stacking programs. This is different from what happens when we stack ordinary vibration-ruined shots; those blurry shots are often ignored in a stack.

Flash also doesn't work with monochrome lenses, including photolithography lenses like the Ultra-Micro-Nikkors and their Zeiss and Nikon successors, and specialized lenses for imaging phosphors, such as X-ray lenses and their relatives. These monochrome lenses are the world's sharpest mass-produced lenses, but they require monochrome light (photolithography lenses) or nearly monochrome light (lenses designed to image phosphors). Apart from these specialized lenses, any lens becomes sharper when using monochrome light. Filtering a flash can be good enough for some of these lenses, but truly monochromatic light (such as that produced by most lasers) gives sharper results.

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

Lou Jost wrote:Flash helps very much to eliminate the effect of vibrations, but there are some things that can't easily be done with flash. This includes especially pixel-shifting photos. Many cameras don't do flash when pixel-shifting. But even for those that do, or those than can be adapted to use flash with the clever controllers invented by people on this forum, flash doesn't remove the effect of vibrations when pixel-shifting. When a camera moves due to vibration when pixel-shifting, the result is that the subframes don't match, and the camera's internal algorithm that synthesizes the final picture will fail, producing diagonal grid patterns. This kind of failure is particularly bad when stacking, since these artifacts are interpreted as sharp detail by stacking programs. This is different from what happens when we stack ordinary vibration-ruined shots; those blurry shots are often ignored in a stack.

Flash also doesn't work with monochrome lenses, including photolithography lenses like the Ultra-Micro-Nikkors and their Zeiss and Nikon successors, and specialized lenses for imaging phosphors, such as X-ray lenses and their relatives. These monochrome lenses are the world's sharpest mass-produced lenses, but they require monochrome light (photolithography lenses) or nearly monochrome light (lenses designed to image phosphors). Apart from these specialized lenses, any lens becomes sharper when using monochrome light. Filtering a flash can be good enough for some of these lenses, but truly monochromatic light (such as that produced by most lasers) gives sharper results.
All good points Lou, I never thought about the limitations with HR pixel-shift especially, so thanks for that. :D

I could easily add a dozen more negatives to using Flash without even trying hard.

Flash output variation between frames. Color balance variation between frames, only seen with Canon flash in my experience but its a deal-breaker. Nikons overly sensitive thermal shut-down circuit that cuts when there is no thermal overload, another deal-breaker. Nikon CLS continuos frame limitation that triggers a mandatory 3 min cooling off. Nikons CLS mis-fire bug. I could keep going and going and going.

Overall I think flash has more positives than negatives by far and it allows the average person to make razor sharp images even in a stiff breeze, in super low light, with tons of vibration and even when the person can't hold the camera steady at 1x.

So I always recommend flash for macro photographers in general since the results are so good and generally speaking it so easy to use, just point and shoot. Personally its a vital tool for the work I do and I couldn't live without it although I actually always prefer 100% natural ambient light :D

Adalbert
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Post by Adalbert »

Hello Troels,
Thank you for the hints!
I only would like to stress that I flash on the 1/128 of the power between the curtains (controlled by the rail).
It enables the exposure time of ca. 1/20000 second.
So, in case of a vertical setup the most important would be the deviation from the optical axis during the moving of the camera.
I can imagine that the best solution would be the usage of the rail with two nuts, one for the camera, and one for the lens.
BR, ADi

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

RobertOToole wrote:
Lou Jost wrote:Flash helps very much to eliminate the effect of vibrations, but there are some things that can't easily be done with flash. This includes especially pixel-shifting photos. Many cameras don't do flash when pixel-shifting. But even for those that do, or those than can be adapted to use flash with the clever controllers invented by people on this forum, flash doesn't remove the effect of vibrations when pixel-shifting. When a camera moves due to vibration when pixel-shifting, the result is that the subframes don't match, and the camera's internal algorithm that synthesizes the final picture will fail, producing diagonal grid patterns. This kind of failure is particularly bad when stacking, since these artifacts are interpreted as sharp detail by stacking programs. This is different from what happens when we stack ordinary vibration-ruined shots; those blurry shots are often ignored in a stack.

Flash also doesn't work with monochrome lenses, including photolithography lenses like the Ultra-Micro-Nikkors and their Zeiss and Nikon successors, and specialized lenses for imaging phosphors, such as X-ray lenses and their relatives. These monochrome lenses are the world's sharpest mass-produced lenses, but they require monochrome light (photolithography lenses) or nearly monochrome light (lenses designed to image phosphors). Apart from these specialized lenses, any lens becomes sharper when using monochrome light. Filtering a flash can be good enough for some of these lenses, but truly monochromatic light (such as that produced by most lasers) gives sharper results.
All good points Lou, I never thought about the limitations with HR pixel-shift especially, so thanks for that. :D

I could easily add a dozen more negatives to using Flash without even trying hard.

Flash output variation between frames. Color balance variation between frames, only seen with Canon flash in my experience but its a deal-breaker. Nikons overly sensitive thermal shut-down circuit that cuts when there is no thermal overload, another deal-breaker. Nikon CLS continuos frame limitation that triggers a mandatory 3 min cooling off. Nikons CLS mis-fire bug. I could keep going and going and going.

Overall I think flash has more positives than negatives by far and it allows the average person to make razor sharp images even in a stiff breeze, in super low light, with tons of vibration and even when the person can't hold the camera steady at 1x.

So I always recommend flash for macro photographers in general since the results are so good and generally speaking it so easy to use, just point and shoot. Personally its a vital tool for the work I do and I couldn't live without it although I actually always prefer 100% natural ambient light :D
Robert,

Many of the very reasons I use a studio strobe when I can; no batteries, more power, more uniform output, no thermal problems, and surprisingly faster optical burst at higher powers. Of course they do have their limitations also!!

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

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Post by rjlittlefield »

ADi, normally I clamp near center of gravity and flash to freeze whatever residual vibration there is.

But if you're designing from scratch, you might consider your third sketch plus an idler rail near the lens, along the lines diagrammed by Ray at http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 743#238743 . In addition to reducing torque on the rail, it also guarantees that the lens end is not going to move more than whatever the tolerance of the idler is.

--Rik

Adalbert
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Post by Adalbert »

Hello Rik,
Thank you for the hint and for the link!
I have forgotten to say that I usually stack in the range smaller than 1mm (magn. 20x, 50x, 80x).
But this rail should be able to work with 5x till 1x (so, over 10mm too).
I’m thinking of the mounting of the clips/springs to the camera (left solution).
Image
BR, ADi

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

ADi...the KR20 rail is already pre-loaded, so the "light" spring you have shown won't help in reducing motion. It will slightly raise the resonance of the system, but it's doubtful this will be much of a benefit. What it will do is to create a constant torque on the poor KR20 carriage, resulting in premature wearout.

The "strong" spring likewise would only help if you had a very heavy system you were trying to move, but the KR20 can drive heavy loads, so the usefulness of that spring is questionable.

Rik linked to a recommended idler rail implementation I shared for the KR15 system, and this can be applied to the KR20 as well. I did this for a vertical setup which ended up with another forum member, based on the WeMacro vertical system. This implementation offers several improvements vs the rail by itself:

- constrains the system on both ends so no low frequency resonances, allowing faster settling times
- reduces moments, which improves rail life, and greatly reduces amplitudes of any movements (stiffer system) caused by environmental disturbances
- constrains lens end so rail movements don't translate to the image

With the system you have shown, I'd expect settling times of >1sec, and even after settling of a major disturbance, the system may continue to move for much longer at lower amplitudes which could have impact on the image. With the idler added, I'd expect settling times <100msec, and once settled the residual movements to be small enough to not cause impact on IQ.

Here's the modified WeMacro system:

Image

Adalbert
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Post by Adalbert »

Hello Ray,
Many thanks for the hints!
The "strong" spring likewise would only help if you had a very heavy system you were trying to move, but the KR20 can drive heavy loads, so the usefulness of that spring is questionable.
My Harley weighs exactly 2kg (4.4 pounds)
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... highlight=
So, I’m not sure if KR20 is strong enough.

The „modified WeMacro system” you have shown looks fantastic, but for me would be much easier to use a THK with two nuts like THK KR2602B+250LP0E:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/THK-KR2602B-25 ... 663.l10137

BR, ADi

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