''Serious work'' Microscope Advice

[SutherlandDesmids]

I'm unsure whether this belongs here or in the advert forum. It seems to me to lie between the two. I may have wildly under or over estimated prices, please don't be harsh!

I write from the Highlands of Scotland as a (very serious and extremely dull and diligent!) amateur student. Autism has kept me away from university, I work at technical translation, tutoring and relief clerical work from home until I get better at being a normal human being.

I'm trying to get funds together for my first ''perfect'' microscope by which I mean a serious and completely fitted microscope capable of doing all the work I ask of it.

True Koehler illumination w. external lamphouse, centring achromatic brightfield condenser, the best and widest range objectives and eyepieces I can afford. The eventual aim is to obtain complete phase sets and more importantly a DIC set for work on living Desmids.

As I have but a limited amount of space (I have no dedicated room for my work, only a repurposed dinner-table in my bedroom in a four-room house with my dear mother) I don't think an instrument of the very first class (say a Universal or an Aristoplan) is a good idea. In any case, the ratio of spending, stand to optics, should, in my mind, be heavily weighted to optics.

I thought an instrument of the middle order, say a Zeiss WL or a Leitz analogue. Would I over do it if I thought of circa an Orthoplan?. The Diaplan does not admit of true Koehler on account of fixed mottled filters.

Both have compatible phase and DIC sets, albeit rather different in principle, trinocular heads, drawing tubes (I regard drawing as a discipline, although I mean to dive headlong into stitched stacks for serious work), a magnification changer (Optovar or Variotube) and plenty of spare parts.

Are my choices of instrument, in the broadest sense (I've never studied the Nikon or Olympus instruments, for instance, but I'm sure they're every bit as suitable) sound?

Then there is price. I believe eBay to be profoundly unreliable, as prices and quality swing about with the regularity and unpleasant results of Poe's eponymous pendulum.

This is rather in the realm of the hypothetical. If Zeiss I think I'd only buy plan achromats and slide in the DIC prisms as and when needed to keep price down (a phase set got later).

Leitz, I think uses dedicated DIC prisms in objectives (branded ITC), so I think fully three sets are eventually needed -- brightfield, phase and ITC.

Should I accumulate a set over time in small doses or is it better to wait and try for a complete outfit. I might guess (this is only a guess) 3-5000?

I've seen young men squander that over the years in computer-game rubbish, but that's a rant for a different website...

Obviously, which instrument I buy will be entirely dependent on the existence of one of these instruments (or any other) for sale in the British amateur microscope community. Mr. Steve Gill of the Postal Mic. Soc. is looking about for me, but I thought I'd ask here too.

I really have no guides as to price save the upper eBay estimate as a safe guide as my old botany teacher died a few years ago and cannot help me.

The ideal situation would be to buy a complete outfit lock stock and barrel from someone willing to set up a beginner for a hopefully long and profitable career of phycology!

However, this is not especially likely and neither blame nor surprise -- had I such an outfit I would not hand it over under slow torture!

My sincere thanks,
P.J. Gray

[Pau]

Hi Patrick, welcome to the forum!

If DIC is one of your priorities (easy to understand why!) but you plan to get it as a future upgrade I can't recommend you the Leitz way: Good as they are, Leitz DIC components are very scarce at the used market and there are several non compatible systems.
Zeiss is much more widespread (only two systems for old 160 instruments), Olympus BH series and Nikon Optiphot and related series are also excellent although maybe more expensive options.

The only widely compatible and affordable DIC system I know is the Polish PZO Biolar. Their native objectives are only achromats but it works really well with many others like Nikon CF and Leitz NPL and PL fluotars. The lamp is low powered although you can retrofit a powerful LED in its place. The stand is not first rate but good enough. Several forum members use it with great results.

Some times mixing unmatched components can work but it is really uncertain and risky. You can take a look at my setup, working but not to be recommended http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 9260#99260

[SutherlandDesmids]

Thank you for the warm welcome. It's really a very base matter of price and availability whether I try to buy a set outright or not.

If I could find one at an ''affordable'' price (relatively speaking, no more than I can raise in half a year) and someone willing to hold onto it for six months on deposit (I have a kind friend in the Quekett who is looking about, but any and every help is deeply welcome) I would take a DIC-fitted Zeiss or Leitz research microscope in a shot. This sort of thing would be ideal (although about the top of my ''mental'' budget, or as much of my fees I can spend on a microscope without my mother murdering me, and only if the owner were not a dealer but an enthusiast willing to hold for six months to raise the other 5000!), but sadly gone.

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/121808611937?Vi ... 1808611937

PMs welcome!

Were I strolling through a hypothetical marketplace of DIC microscopes I think I would prefer Leitz, simply as I cut my teeth on a Leitz SM and familiarity comes into it, but I will carefully study Zeiss in particular for a stepwise purchase and also all other points you make.

[Ichthyophthirius]

True Koehler illumination w. external lamphouse, centring achromatic brightfield condenser, the best and widest range objectives and eyepieces I can afford. The eventual aim is to obtain complete phase sets and more importantly a DIC set for work on living Desmids.

I thought an instrument of the middle order, say a Zeiss WL or a Leitz analogue. Would I over do it if I thought of circa an Orthoplan?. The Diaplan does not admit of true Koehler on account of fixed mottled filters.

Hi Patrick,

I agree with Pau, the DIC sets for Leitz microscopes are rare and much more difficult to obtain than the Zeiss systems. And there are a few pitfalls with Leitz ICT (4 different systems; the early objectives ICT were calibrated to a specific nosepiece position but are often sold separately). On the other hand, the Zeiss DIC systems suffer from delamination ...

If you restrict yourself to brightfield/darkfield/phase contrast you have a wide range of microscopes to choose from, Leitz, Zeiss and others.

If you want to buy Leitz, Olympus or Nikon with DIC, you should buy a system that is as complete as possible, as long as the price is reasonable.

If you want to add DIC later, the small Zeiss stands (Standard RA, 14/16/18 and Standard WL) can do everything you want while taking up very little space. Get a Zeiss with phase contrast condenser and you can do brightfield/darkfield/oblique illumination/phase contrast with it.

As a relative beginner (correct me if I'm wrong!), I think you're at risk of overspending on a full high-end DIC setup. I would recommend a phase contrast microscope and 1-2 years of practice before moving on to DIC.

The Zeiss phase contrast option should also leave a bit of money to get a stereo microscope which will be very useful for pre-sorting your desmid samples. Good sample preparation is essential for phase contrast.

Regards, Ichty

[SutherlandDesmids]

You're not obliged to believe me, but I've been at this seriously about five years now, with another two or three with Mr. Joyce. I was a disgustingly precocious child, and a pretty disgusting child too.

Your advice is incredibly welcome, frank and interesting, well worth considering, thank you.

[zzffnn]

Welcome to the forum, Patrick.

You should also check into your local university surplus sales. You may be able to win a DIC scope with a bid that is much less than eBay prices. But in a big city with professional dealers competing with you, you may have to pay close to eBay prices.

Many live algae can be imaged very well with DIY oblique and darkfield illumination, though very small cleaned diatom frustules do benefit from high magnification DIC.

DIC really shines at objectives more powerful than 60x or NA 0.85, with transparent subjects. Not as much with bigger colorful subjects such as many desmids.

So the key question is do you really need DIC.

For me, I found out that I need $3000 USD to buy a complete DIC scope from a dealer, in US. I am a microbiologist by trade and have decided that, even though I would love to have a DIC scope, I don't really need (or have to have) it. I simply have too many other hobbies to spend more on, for example, a ski resort trip would cost about $3000 and is better appreciated by my entire family; so I would rather spend money there first. Or find a good surplus deal locally.

Your mileage may vary though. If you really enjoy microscopy and know for sure you will enjoy it for many years. Then DIC is a good choice. Resale value is usually good, if your DIC system is complete and works well.

[Perl]

My advice are !

Avoid Zeiss - To much delamination Problems

Look at Leitz and buy as complete as possible
otherwise read manuals to be sure of that to get

Start with an Nice equipped Orthoplan

Best Regards
Pär

[SutherlandDesmids]

My sincere thanks for all your help. Especially Ichthyophthirius. A voice of reason!

A most helpful gentleman has offered an Optiphot (Nikon) phase-brightfield-darkfield at an extremely fair price and in this country. Fortunately a compatible camera lucida is very easy to find too.

I’ve decided to omit DIC and spend part of the extra money on a good camera as well as any other photomicrographic kit I might be able to afford. I shan’t need DIC and a decent camera will hopefully launch me into serious work.

My thanks once again.

[ChrisR]

Good luck!

I'm trying to remember the name for a "poor man's DIC" device which gives you controllable oblique lighting. I hope someone will know it and give a name we can use to search on.
It's based on a sort of step wedge which you put under the condenser.
Some of the reults I've seen have been remarkably DIC-like.

[rjlittlefield]

"poor man's DIC" device which gives you controllable oblique lighting

That sounds like Litonotus's "Gradient Universal Filter", described at http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=15142 .

--Rik

[ChrisR]

Yes that's it, thanks Rik.

I thought they used to be for sale on ebay.
I don't see one now, though one can buy Gradient filers in cellphone sizes, which may be useful somewhere on a microscope. eg #173627825278

[Pau]

It will be better to print them on acetate, take a look at http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 830#172830

The problem is to place the filter at the right position, not doable with many condensers. In a phase condenser the right position will be at the same plane of the phase rings and BF diaphragm.

A phase condenser allows easy oblique illumination just partially rotating the disc...you can get typical oblique at the BF position end even oblique phase contrast, not so easy.

[zzffnn]

I partially agree with Pau, in that UGF/GUF filter works best at back focal plane of condenser. And that is indeed not possible with Nikon Optiphot condenser and many other modern condensers, unless you modify them.

However, the filters will still work elsewhere, even on field lens/iris. You just get weaker effect and more background unevenness. So still give it a try, even if you are off by a few centimeters. Most likely, you would prefer the effect without the filter than without.

A simple alternative is crescent (offset) oblique filter (simple hard opaque shape, without gradient). Or as Pau said, simply offset phase ring in condenser.

With my Frankenstein scope rig and per my personal preference, I prefer GUG/UGF for 20x NA 0.4 objective and any less powerful objective, because of smoother background.

For 40x NA 0.65 objective and any more power objective, I prefer simple crescent oblique filter, because of its better edge resolution (sometimes GUF would smear edge details on subjectives at high NA, which I do not like).

[dunksargent]

If still seeking good quality used microscopes you might consider checking Brunel Microscopes' 'Used' listings where e.g. 'Ex laboratory' instruments are listed including phase contrast microscopes. Also check their used 'Accessories', 'Other equipment', and individual manufacturers' apparatus.

http://www.usedmicroscopes.co.uk/exlaboratory.html

Best wishes

dunk