Trinocular microscope advice

Leif · Post by **Leif** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:40 pm

I would appreciate helpful advice from anyone knowledgeable.

I'm thinking of upgrading from my old Prior (English) microscope to a modern brightfield microscope suitable for mycology and some photography with a DSLR. I'll need up to 1000x magnification and plan achromat objectives. I also assume I will need a trinocular instrument.

I'm looking at the following:

Nikon E100/E200 scopes.
Meiji MX4300H scope.
Zeiss Primostar.

I am concerned that according to someone on this forum the Zeiss is Chinese made. Does that mean made in China in a Zeiss factory, or rebadged?

User experience of the 4 scopes above would be appreciated. Also does anyone know if the above will be superior to the better Chinese units?

Lastly (phew) scopes in the UK are about twice the price compared to the US, so I might import one, and pay tax. Any recommended US dealers? Or any to avoid?

Thanks in advance.

Leif

Leif · Post by **Leif** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:52 pm

It does look like the Zeiss Primostar is made for Zeiss in China by Motic:

http://www.martinmicroscope.com/Brands.htm

I guess this means it carries Chinese quality with a Zeiss name premium.

Charles Krebs · Post by **Charles Krebs** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:06 pm

Leif,

Unfortunately I can offer no first hand experience with the microscopes you mention. Generally a company like Zeiss will not simply "re-badge" an instrument made by a company like Motic (probably the best Chinese manufacturer). They usually have design input and quality control supervision.

Ken Ramos · Post by **Ken Ramos** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:06 am

I personally have not read anything bad about the Primostar, though it is manufactured in China. However, my Zeiss Axiostar was manufactured in Mexico. I have had it for a number of years now and it has worked flawlessly over the years, both optically and mechanically. As Charlie mentioned, Zeiss probably has their QA supervisors there overseeing things. Have you considered the Axiostar over the Primostar? As I said I know little about the Primostar but the Axiostar is designed around a complete system that can take you from brightfield to epifluoresence and everywhere else in between. Personally I think the Axiostar or if you can swing it, the Axioskop would be your best bet. I have seen some good work come from a Meiji also. Japanese made but the optical quality seems to be quite good, a bit more expensive than the Axiostar though. I have a Meiji stereomicroscope that I have been using for quite awhile, it too a bit expensive but it has served me well.

Leif · Post by **Leif** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:49 am

Charles/Ken: Thanks for the information.

I would love a Zeiss Axiostar, which gets good user reviews, but in the UK a new one costs almost $6,000. A trinocular Zeiss Primostar costs nearly $4,000. They are expensive.

I guess I could hunt down a used item. There is a Nikon E400 going for a nice price, but it is binocular, not trinocular, so is (I presume) not suitable for photography with a DSLR camera. Maybe other items will appear on ebay UK.

Or I might risk importing from the US. I have done it with (expensive) lenses several times.

Charles: You have some lovely images on your web site. I am sure you have indirectly been responsible for the sale of more than a few microscopes.

DaveW · Post by **DaveW** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:58 am

I know nothing about microscopes, but most name manufacturers have outsourced some of their production for years, but retained their quality control if they badged it. I believe some of Leica's camera and lens production was made in either the US or Canada, not Germany many years ago (I can't remember which country now) and some Zeiss lenses that get rave reviews in Nikon fit are made by Cosina, who also make for the cheap and entry end of the market. Nikon's top of the range flashguns have made in China in tiny letters stamped on them, and the D200 and many other new Nikon's are made in Thailand.

Remember Japan used to be the upstart cheap supplier of optical equipment compared to Germany in the 1960's. Now their optics are revered and their labour force has got too dear so they are outsourcing to emerging countries. In fact years ago a British company bought Leica microscopes for a time I believe, though they were still made in Germany. Who actually owns the company now I do not know.

You can only really go on the reputation of the company whose name is stamped on the product, because virtually all major companies now outsource parts or the complete product, and most have done so for decades, even if only within their own country. Even the cheapest lens manufacturers now use the same computer controlled and most up to date element grinding machines the marque makers make their lenses on.

See:-

http://www.leica.com/

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A96E958260

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/revie ... ount.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeiss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leica

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_%28company%29

I had to laugh one day reading a post on a web site by a Japanese who said he would only use Japanese lenses and equipment for his Nikon D200 as outsourced products were not up to Japanese quality he felt. As said above, if he had only turned his revered camera up and looked near the tripod socket he would have found it was made in Thailand!

DaveW

Charles Krebs · Post by **Charles Krebs** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:10 pm

Leif,

A trinocular Zeiss Primostar costs nearly $4,000.

Ouch!

I think that is more than 2X as much as I can buy one for over here!

DaveW · Post by **DaveW** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:49 pm

Found this browsing the web that may be of interest:-

http://www.martinmicroscope.com/Brands.htm

If this is the microscope you mean it seems more in line with Charles price here:-

http://www.fisher.co.uk/whats_new/newpr ... ods136.php

DaveW

Leif · Post by **Leif** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:36 pm

DaveW wrote: If this is the microscope you mean it seems more in line with Charles price here:-

http://www.fisher.co.uk/whats_new/newpr ... ods136.php

DaveW

The cheapest trinocular variant is number 5, which is £1,413.00. Add VAT and it becomes £1660.275. That is about $3,400. It's more than I would wish to pay! And I have no idea how it compares to the Axiostar, which has a good reputation.

Leif · Post by **Leif** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:44 pm

DaveW wrote:most name manufacturers have outsourced some of their production for years, but retained their quality control if they badged it.

... some Zeiss lenses that get rave reviews in Nikon fit are made by Cosina,

... Nikon's top of the range flashguns have made in China in tiny letters stamped on them, and the D200 and many other new Nikon's are made in Thailand....

Hello Dave. I agree with much of what you say.

However, as far as I know Nikon do not actually outsource except in rare cases such as the FM10 camera and kit lens made by Cosina. Nikon have factories in China and Thailand, and they train the staff. Some of the higher grade gear such as the D2x and D3 cameras tends to be made in Japan.

As you say Zeiss have outsourced some lenses to Cosina and they are very good too. But Cosina is Japanese and produces some first rate lenses under the Voightlander brand.

I guess I have more trust in known quantities such as Meiji. Unfortunately I have found no reviews comparing Chinese Brand X with Zeiss or Meiji or Nikon.

I know that Chinese binoculars and scopes are good value, but not up to the standard of Leica, Nikon etc. I was once sent a sample of a Chinese binocular to review online. It was very very good value, but no Leica.

Ken Ramos · Post by **Ken Ramos** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:07 pm

About the best you can get at a low price would be something from National Microscopes. Their scopes are made in China but mechanically they are very nice, smooth operating and have all metal construction. The standard objectives that come with the scopes though, I would trash and order some good 160mm semi-plan or plan objectives to replace them with. I owned and used a National Model 160 for a good while and was pleased with it, while I saved up my pennies for an Axiostar. I ordered a set of semi-plans from NWS Scientific and installed them on the Model 160 and it preformed very well for my needs. The Model 160 is what some would call a clinical microscope, nothing fancy but gets the job done.

Charles Krebs · Post by **Charles Krebs** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:43 pm

Fisher Scientific in the US shows a trinocular Primo Star version for $1838.00. That's a huge difference.

microcollector · Post by **microcollector** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:28 pm

A collector friend of mine bought a Motic brand trinocular scope a number of years ago. He was able to see a good image through the oculars but not able to take a good photo. He and his wife tried to get it to work but nothing worked. He ended up sending it to Absolute Clarity and discovered that it would never take a good photo due to the quality of the optics, our eyes are rather forgiving. He ended up with a Meiji EMZ-8TR and later upgraded to a Meiji RZ scope. I would point him this way but, unfortunatley he passed away earlier this year. He referred to the Motic as his Chinese wreck. He did get his money back from the company he purchased it from. Over on Mindat.org, on the photo section of the message board, you should be able to find some of his comments by going back far enough in the board.
Doug

Planapo · Post by **Planapo** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:14 am

It´s quite interesting to compare prices from different countries.

In Germany I´ve found a dealer who offers a Primostar with phototube and plan objectives for 1839.00 EURO (incl. VAT, excl. shipping).
See "Paket 5" on this site: http://www.juelich-bonn.com/site/mikros ... mikroskop/

--Betty

DaveW · Post by **DaveW** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:12 am

Don't think there is any import duty within the EU? I got my 70mm-180mm Micro Nikkor from Germany via EBAY for a good price with no trouble.

http://www.parcelforce.com/portal/pw/co ... load105042

Yahoo Currency Converter makes €1839.00 = £1,328.19p

DaveW