Clash of the Titans: Printing Nikkor vs Repro Nikkor f/1.0

Have questions about the equipment used for macro- or micro- photography? Post those questions in this forum.

Moderators: rjlittlefield, ChrisR, Chris S., Pau

Lou Jost
Posts: 5987
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:03 am
Location: Ecuador
Contact:

Clash of the Titans: Printing Nikkor vs Repro Nikkor f/1.0

Post by Lou Jost »

Two of the best 1:1 macro lenses ever made are the Printing Nikkor 105mm version A and the Repro-Nikkor 85mm. Mark Goodman at coinimaging.com tested my copy of the PN105A (which was owned by Ray Parkhurst at the time of that testing) and concluded that "This lens has exceptional resolution and sharpness, outperforming every other lens that I have tried from about 0.60:1 to 1.5:1." (http://coinimaging.com/printing-nikkor_105.html)

On his test page he noted that "This lens shows the highest center of the field sharpness and resolution that I have measured across this magnification range (except maybe at the highest mag (m=1.95)." His tests show that at 1:1 it has perfect field flatness, and it also has almost no lateral or longitudinal chromatic aberration, even wide open. In short, this is one of the best, if not THE best, lens for color macro photography at m=1 on a FF sensor.

This is a rare lens, but there is an even more scarce special Nikon lens that could be even sharper, judging from the specs. This is the incredible Repro-Nikkor 85mm f/1.0. Bjorn Rorslett says of this lens: "Another of those elusive industrial-type Nikkors from the heyday of the hippies, the 85/1 was optimised for 1:1 magnification and lacks any focusing means whatsoever...Images, even with the lens set wide open, have a crispness and bite that makes you wonder where the optical evolution is headed these days, since 30+ year old designs could give these stunning results....It makes a perfect macro setup for field use with or without a 1.4X TC added to it. Another application is deploying it as a relay lens for various non-retrofocus fisheye lenses (6, 7.5, 8, and 10 mm)." (http://www.naturfotograf.com/lens_spec.html)

Its wider aperture means that it will show less diffraction than the PN105A, but lens aberrations might mask that advantage. A head-to-head test is the only way to know for sure which of these great lenses is best. To my knowledge no such head-to-head test of these exotic lenses exists yet.

I recently bought a good copy of the Repro-Nikkor, with the intention of testing it against the PN105A and selling the one that was less perfect. These are my tests to decide the question.

Magnification is exactly 1.0 (to two decimal places) for all of the shots in these tests, for both lenses. I am using an Olympus PEN F MFT format sensor with 20Mp. Though some have reported that the RN85 is difficult to adapt to mirrored cameras, I found it is easy to adapt to Nikon cameras (and hence to mirrorless cameras using their Nikon adapters) via a 48-52mm Heliopan step-up ring and a standard Nikon BR2 reversing ring. By pure luck this gives exactly m=1.

Before we compare the two lenses, let's see how the RN85 performs wide open (f/1.0) versus f/2.0 vs f/2.8. Here is an unsharpened stack of unprocessed jpgs at f/1.0 (the shutter speed was 1/800s!):
Image

Below is the same subject with the lens stopped down one stop, to f/1.4:
Image

Below the lens is stopped down to f/2.8:
Image

And here is a composite of 100% center crops at f/1.0, f/1.4, and f/2.8:
Image

The f/1.0 result is slightly soft but has no color fringing at all. By f/1.4 it pretty good, and at f/2.8 it is about as sharp as it can get.

Note that this "100%" refers to tiny MFT pixels; if this were taken on a FF sensor with 42Mp, a 100% crop would look more like this (f/1.0, f/1.4, f/2.8):
Image

Since the quality is so high, it is worth presenting the 400% crops of the center of the MFT image (f/1.0, f/1.4, f/2.8):
Image

At f/2.8 the image is pixel-perfect. Even at f/1.4 it is very good.

Below is a composite of 100% corner crops of the the MFT image at f/1.0, f/1.4, and f/2.8:
Image

On an MFT sensor, this lens produces similar resolution at center and corner.

In spite of the good performance, though, this series (together with the f/2.0 results, not shown) shows that the lens is not diffraction-limited below f/2.8. The quality improves as the lens is stopped down to f/2.8. This means that although the RN85 is a spectacular lens, the PN105A could still come out on top. In the next post to this thread I will compare the two lenses, using a more extreme target, with strong backlight and transparency. This should produce lots of CA, if anything can.

Lou Jost
Posts: 5987
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:03 am
Location: Ecuador
Contact:

Post by Lou Jost »

The contenders:
Image

My target for the comparison is the strew of small moth scales shown below, removed from a moth wing with clear tape. I then cut the tape into a disc and laid it, with scales and sticky side up, on a piece of glass. I masked the image area with black paper so no stray light would mess with the results. I laid the glass on a cup of dilute milk, and lit the milk from below with two janso lights. The milk completely diffused the light. All light was transmitted light, none came from above.

Image


When focusing the scales with the RN85 at f/1.0-2.0, there was a lot of green/purple longitudinal chromatic aberration and/or purple haze in out-of-focus areas; this was barely noticeable at f/2.8. This agrees with Royal Winchester's observations about his RN85 on this forum (http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... sc&start=0). The PN105 did not show noticeable green/purple longitudinal chromatic aberration, but there was a faint purple haze in some out-of-focus areas.

We saw in the last test that the RN85 improves with stopping down to at least f/2.8, so we mainly need to compare the two lenses at that aperture.

Here is a side-by-side 100% crop of the MFT images, taken from near the right edge of the above image:
Image

The two are nearly identical, but close examination of the whole image at 200% suggests to me that the PN105 is actually resolving slightly more detail, or perhaps has better flare control. This is quite incredible since the PN105A is wide open and the RN85 is closed down three stops.

So what should I do???? I guess I will sell the RN85 unless I can invent a reason for needing such a fast lens (I'm good at inventing reasons to buy and keep lenses)....The RN85 also has one physical limitation when used with DSLRs: it cannot be pushed down to lower magnifications by shortening the extension, since there is no extra extension needed to reach 1:1. The PN105A on the other hand needs lots of extension just to get to 1:1, and this can be removed to push it down to lower m. Nevertheless both lenses can be pushed down with a Speedbooster. That would make the RN85 a crazy-fast lens....oh no, did I just invent a reason to keep them both??? No No NO!

ChrisR
Site Admin
Posts: 8671
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:58 am
Location: Near London, UK

Post by ChrisR »

Thanks for that test, I can make do with my PN, then.
It would have been nice if the f/1.0 lens had been diffraction-limited wide open, though, just to prove it possible.
Is there any reason to think a speedbooster would work better with the 85 than with the 105?

Interesting use of milk.
Was it condensered?
Chris R

Lou Jost
Posts: 5987
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:03 am
Location: Ecuador
Contact:

Post by Lou Jost »

Powdered, not condensed. Completely despeckles even laser light. I can't drink the stuff though, lactose intolerant...

No reason to think the speedbooster would make a better image on the RN vs PN, but it would make lens that was faster than f/1.0 if a high shutter speed was needed for some reason...

ray_parkhurst
Posts: 3436
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:40 am
Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA
Contact:

Post by ray_parkhurst »

I'm not surprised the 105PN came out on top, though I must say that you coaxed much more performance out of you 85RN than I did from the one I bought a few years ago. I could never get good corner sharpness. I concluded there was something wrong with the lens, and returned it, and have not since been brave enough to try again. Glad to see you ended up with a respectable copy of the lens, and indeed it seems to perform admirably. The inability to push below 1:1 is a showstopper for me, but perhaps the lens is usable for other purposes (relay, etc) where it enables something special?

I'm sure you all saw the 105mm f/2.8 Repro-Nikkor that sold on eBay a while back, and the 100mm f/2.8 Cine-Nikkor for sale at the moment. I had to keep from pressing the button on those, since I figured it's not likely either could beat the 105PN, given same maximum aperture. I must repeat the mantra...I am not a lens collector...I am not a lens collector...I am not a lens collector...

Lou Jost
Posts: 5987
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:03 am
Location: Ecuador
Contact:

Post by Lou Jost »

Yes, it is hard to resist the siren song of a fancy lens no one has tried. I am glad that you and others (most recently especially Robert O"Toole) have been taking risks to try odd new lenses...I will do my part too.

I finally pulled the trigger on this copy of the Repro-Nikkor because the price was reasonable and because it was being sold by a photographer rather than a salvage baron, and he included nice pictures he had taken with that exact lens. He was also willing to answer my questions about the lens. The lens is in perfect condition, not like some of the Repro-Nikkors that had been appearing on eBay, which looked as if they have been torn from machines using big monkey-wrenches. I can't imagine those were handled carefully after being ripped out.

The seller, by the way, was "bykhed". He doesn't have anything on eBay now, but maybe in the future he'll have some something else interesting.

Beatsy
Posts: 2131
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:10 am
Location: Malvern, UK

Post by Beatsy »

ray_parkhurst wrote:I must repeat the mantra...I am not a lens collector...I am not a lens collector...I am not a lens collector...
Haha. You've done it now! That's a magical incantation that severely amplifies your lens collecting tendencies :)

Just to add to Lou's comment - I'm also very grateful to those "blazing trails" and finding new lenses to improve performance or fill the gaps (that very useful 2x-ish range for instance).

I'm not in the market for one, but there are a couple of 105mm Printing Nikkors on Ebay right now (the A versions). All well over £1000 - is that the going rate?

And finally - the recent surge in prices for Dimage Elite 5400 scanners is something to behold. One from Oz sold for >£450 last week, and one listed this week is already at £210 with 4 bidders and 40+ watchers and still 6 days to go. Mine becomes more of a bargain with every passing week :D

ChrisR
Site Admin
Posts: 8671
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:58 am
Location: Near London, UK

Post by ChrisR »

ChrisR wrote:Interesting use of milk.
Was it condensered?
That was a feeble attempt at a joke around transmitted light, but
LouJost wrote:Powdered, not condensed.
was a useful reminder that the stuff comes in a form that keeps much more easliy.
Chris R

Lou Jost
Posts: 5987
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:03 am
Location: Ecuador
Contact:

Post by Lou Jost »

Oh gosh, I didn't even catch the extra "er"!!!

Lou Jost
Posts: 5987
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:03 am
Location: Ecuador
Contact:

Post by Lou Jost »

Beatsy, 1000 pounds would be on the low side (though not by much) for a good copy. RN85 is generally even more expensive.

Beatsy
Posts: 2131
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:10 am
Location: Malvern, UK

Post by Beatsy »

Lou Jost wrote:Beatsy, 1000 pounds would be on the low side (though not by much) for a good copy. RN85 is generally even more expensive.
Sounds a lot, but it's not that bad for such performance - if you have the need (or desire) for it. I know it's at the other end of the magnification scale, but a used 50x Mitty is around the same or more. Certainly puts it in perspective.

I wonder if great macro lenses are lurking in places we haven't thought of yet?

Lou Jost
Posts: 5987
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:03 am
Location: Ecuador
Contact:

Post by Lou Jost »

I am sure there are amazing lens discoveries floating around out there. I have a bunch of strange things I bought over the last year that I have not tested carefully; some seem extremely good at first sight.

Lou Jost
Posts: 5987
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:03 am
Location: Ecuador
Contact:

Post by Lou Jost »

I forgot to mention that somewhere on the internet a claim was made that the RN85 was telecentric. That was one of the reasons I was interested in it. But in my tests above, both the RN85 and the PN105 had Zerene scale factors of about 0.992 at the end of shallow stacks. and these values are very far from telecentric. This was obvious also by eye as I moved the lens back and forth on the rail. So that myth is busted.

ray_parkhurst
Posts: 3436
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:40 am
Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA
Contact:

Post by ray_parkhurst »

Lou Jost wrote:I am sure there are amazing lens discoveries floating around out there. I have a bunch of strange things I bought over the last year that I have not tested carefully; some seem extremely good at first sight.
I posted this question on another (incorrect) thread...

Has anyone purchased one of the "Nikon Industry" line scan lenses that have been available for a while? Here's a link to representative example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-Industry ... =R40&rt=nc

edited to add: BTW, I have had excellent transactions with XYZA on mechanical components. Good seller IMO.

Lou Jost
Posts: 5987
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:03 am
Location: Ecuador
Contact:

Post by Lou Jost »

I almost pulled the trigger on one of those last month. But I just can't tell what they are. And I worried that a lens that had been sitting around for a while in Thailand was very likely to have fungus, even if the fungus is not yet conspicuously visible.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic