Pixel size and image resolution

[Lou Jost]

Yes, you seem to be more concerned with reducing noise, while I am most interested in sub-pixel resolution and complete color sampling. The Oly algorithm does both those things with the minimum possible number of shots. It is a beautiful algorithm.

[Macrero]

There is one different beast: the Sigma Foveon sensor. Sigma cameras are pain in the rear to use, they are annoyingly slow, virtually unusable at higher than ISO 100 and have a lot of downsides for the average shooter used to "popular" brands cameras.

But under the right circumstances (studio, perfect lighting/exposure) they are capable of producing some stunning result, especially in terms of resolution and fine detail resolved.

Quite a few years ago I used SD 14 and 15 for field macro. I've been curious to see how the new Foveon X3 sensor works for stacking, so next week I will receive a Sigma SD Quattro body. I will let you know how it does when I have some tests done.

Best,

- Macrero

[Lou Jost]

Yes, I've always been intrigued by those sensors. I'd have gotten one if the flange-to-sensor distance would have permitted adapters to third-party lenses. The proprietrary and unnecessarily-long lens mount was a deal-killer.

The Sony, Pentax, and Olympus pixel-shifting algorithms are achieving the same thing, but without the losses between color layers that reduce the effectiveness of the Foveon sensor. However they require a subject that doesn't move at all, unlike the Foveon.

[mawyatt]

There is one different beast: the Sigma Foveon sensor. Sigma cameras are pain in the rear to use, they are annoyingly slow, virtually unusable at higher than ISO 100 and have a lot of downsides for the average shooter used to "popular" brands cameras.

But under the right circumstances (studio, perfect lighting/exposure) they are capable of producing some stunning result, especially in terms of resolution and fine detail resolved.

Quite a few years ago I used SD 14 and 15 for field macro. I've been curious to see how the new Foveon X3 sensor works for stacking, so next week I will receive a Sigma SD Quattro body. I will let you know how it does when I have some tests done.

Best,

- Macrero

Macrero,

I've followed the Foveon Sensor ever since Carver Meade was involved and they used the National Semiconductor bipolar process for the initial sensors.

It's a shame that Foveon couldn't get acquired by Nikon or Canon, and ended up at Sigma; basically a lens company, which really doesn't know how to design a top tier DSLR.

My belief is the Foveon Sensor could have something much more if Foveon had ended up at Nikon or Canon

The sensor concept was brilliant, the followup not so IMO
Best,

[ray_parkhurst]

Quite a few years ago I used SD 14 and 15 for field macro. I've been curious to see how the new Foveon X3 sensor works for stacking, so next week I will receive a Sigma SD Quattro body. I will let you know how it does when I have some tests done.

Best,

- Macrero

Very cool. I have been interested in this since the X3 sensor first came out, but have never taken the plunge. I will be very interested to see your results and comparison tests.

[Macrero]

Yes, I've always been intrigued by those sensors. I'd have gotten one if the flange-to-sensor distance would have permitted adapters to third-party lenses. The proprietrary and unnecessarily-long lens mount was a deal-killer.

Yeah, that's a pity, though I'm planning to use it for stacking in studio only so it's not an inconvenience for me.

By the way, I use Canon FD bellows, there is no Sigma SA - Canon FD adapters avaliable, so I had to make one for the SD 14/15. Luckily I found it so I will not have to make another one for the Quattro...

The Sony, Pentax, and Olympus pixel-shifting algorithms are achieving the same thing, but without the losses between color layers that reduce the effectiveness of the Foveon sensor. However they require a subject that doesn't move at all, unlike the Foveon.

I've never used a camera with pixel-shifting. Not sure if it is fully comparable to a true RGB sensor with no AA and CFA filters. Anyway, it implies multi-shooting (4X for Sony and Pentax and 8X for Oly) and when stacking that's a lot more of work for the camera.

Best,

- Macrero

[Lou Jost]

I think the pixel-shifting is superior to the Foveon in terms of color sampling; I had read that the Foveon sensor is less sensitive to the colors that are detected deeper below the sensor surface. There is no AA filter in these cameras. It does take extra time for the camera, but since pixel-shifting always uses electronic shutter, there is no extra mechanical work for the camera shutter. It does greatly slow down stacking though, and a great deal more care about environmental vibrations is needed.

The multiple shots also greatly reduce noise.

[Macrero]

Very cool. I have been interested in this since the X3 sensor first came out, but have never taken the plunge. I will be very interested to see your results and comparison tests.

Will share my impressions as soon as I test the camera. I am also very interested in seeing the result of pairing the new Foveon X3 with some high-resolution optics at high magnification.

Having used Sigma cameras, I am prepared for the worst, but hope for the best My main concern is the fully mechanical shutter. I work with continuous light, no flashes, so I might have to lower the light and shoot at long-exposure in order to avoid vibrations.

Best,

- Macrero

[Macrero]

I think the pixel-shifting is superior to the Foveon in terms of color sampling; I had read that the Foveon sensor is less sensitive to the colors that are detected deeper below the sensor surface. There is no AA filter in these cameras. It does take extra time for the camera, but since pixel-shifting always uses electronic shutter, there is no extra mechanical work for the camera shutter. It does greatly slow down stacking though, and a great deal more care about environmental vibrations is needed.

The multiple shots also greatly reduce noise.

I, honestly, am not familiar with the pixel-shifting technology. If it (as it sounds) combines the best of Bayer and Foveon, it is something I should look into. Unfortunately I have no camera with pixel-shift to compare it with the Sigma.

However, fully electronic shutter does not mean that the camera is immortal the more it works the less it will live

Best,

- Macrero

[Macrero]

Macrero,

I've followed the Foveon Sensor ever since Carver Meade was involved and they used the National Semiconductor bipolar process for the initial sensors.

It's a shame that Foveon couldn't get acquired by Nikon or Canon, and ended up at Sigma; basically a lens company, which really doesn't know how to design a top tier DSLR.

My belief is the Foveon Sensor could have something much more if Foveon had ended up at Nikon or Canon

The sensor concept was brilliant, the followup not so IMO
Best,

Hey Mike, I missed your post, sorry.

Have you used a Foveon based camera for stacking?

Yep, the Foveon is the eternal could-have-been... Though there is quite a lot of misunderstanding about Sigma cameras. They're not by any means generally-purpose devises or point-and-shoot cameras. But I think that under the right circumstances (as could be studio stacking) and in the "right hands" they are capable of producing some great images.

I was pretty happy with the old SD camera I used for field macro work. I hope the new Foveon sensor will work well on studio, but it's yet to be seen...

Best,

- Macrero

[RobertOToole]

....

It's a shame that Foveon couldn't get acquired by Nikon or Canon, and ended up at Sigma; basically a lens company, which really doesn't know how to design a top tier DSLR.

My belief is the Foveon Sensor could have something much more if Foveon had ended up at Nikon or Canon.....

I have been told that Canon has offered to buy Sigma at least twice and was refused since the owner wanted to keep the company in the family since the employees and their families well-being are one of his responsibilities as head of the company. I think Sigma would cease to exist if Canon was able to do the purchase, but the Foveon patents might be put to wider use. FYI, most of Canon and Nikon lenses are made in China and Thailand.

(BTW Sigma is the only mainstream Japanese camera/lens manufacturer that produces all their products in Japan with Japanese components. Cosina also produces everything in Japan but they are a high-end specialist.)

Robert

[ray_parkhurst]

I have been told that Canon has offered to buy Sigma at least twice and was refused since the owner wanted to keep the company in the family since the employees and their families well-being are one of his responsibilities as head of the company. I think Sigma would cease to exist if Canon was able to do the purchase, but the Foveon patents might be put to wider use. FYI, most of Canon and Nikon lenses are made in China and Thailand.

(BTW Sigma is the only mainstream Japanese camera/lens manufacturer that produces all their products in Japan with Japanese components. Cosina also produces everything in Japan but they are a high-end specialist.)

Robert

Makes me want to buy Sigma and Cosina products.

[mawyatt]

Macrero,

I've followed the Foveon Sensor ever since Carver Meade was involved and they used the National Semiconductor bipolar process for the initial sensors.

It's a shame that Foveon couldn't get acquired by Nikon or Canon, and ended up at Sigma; basically a lens company, which really doesn't know how to design a top tier DSLR.

My belief is the Foveon Sensor could have something much more if Foveon had ended up at Nikon or Canon

The sensor concept was brilliant, the followup not so IMO
Best,

Hey Mike, I missed your post, sorry.

Have you used a Foveon based camera for stacking?

Yep, the Foveon is the eternal could-have-been... Though there is quite a lot of misunderstanding about Sigma cameras. They're not by any means generally-purpose devises or point-and-shoot cameras. But I think that under the right circumstances (as could be studio stacking) and in the "right hands" they are capable of producing some great images.

I was pretty happy with the old SD camera I used for field macro work. I hope the new Foveon sensor will work well on studio, but it's yet to be seen...

Best,

- Macrero

Macero,

Agree, that in the right hands (like yours) and studio work the sensor could really show it's stuff

What do you know about the latest sensor vs. the previous ones regarding performance?

Best,

[mawyatt]

....

It's a shame that Foveon couldn't get acquired by Nikon or Canon, and ended up at Sigma; basically a lens company, which really doesn't know how to design a top tier DSLR.

My belief is the Foveon Sensor could have something much more if Foveon had ended up at Nikon or Canon.....

I have been told that Canon has offered to buy Sigma at least twice and was refused since the owner wanted to keep the company in the family since the employees and their families well-being are one of his responsibilities as head of the company. I think Sigma would cease to exist if Canon was able to do the purchase, but the Foveon patents might be put to wider use. FYI, most of Canon and Nikon lenses are made in China and Thailand.

(BTW Sigma is the only mainstream Japanese camera/lens manufacturer that produces all their products in Japan with Japanese components. Cosina also produces everything in Japan but they are a high-end specialist.)

Robert

Robert,

Interesting, that about Sigma, didn't know Canon tried to acquire them.

Best,

[RobertOToole]

....

It's a shame that Foveon couldn't get acquired by Nikon or Canon, and ended up at Sigma; basically a lens company, which really doesn't know how to design a top tier DSLR.

My belief is the Foveon Sensor could have something much more if Foveon had ended up at Nikon or Canon.....

I have been told that Canon has offered to buy Sigma at least twice and was refused since the owner wanted to keep the company in the family since the employees and their families well-being are one of his responsibilities as head of the company. I think Sigma would cease to exist if Canon was able to do the purchase, but the Foveon patents might be put to wider use. FYI, most of Canon and Nikon lenses are made in China and Thailand.

(BTW Sigma is the only mainstream Japanese camera/lens manufacturer that produces all their products in Japan with Japanese components. Cosina also produces everything in Japan but they are a high-end specialist.)

Robert

Robert,

Interesting, that about Sigma, didn't know Canon tired to acquire them.

Best,

I was told they made an offer more than and once for a very substantial amount.

I wonder if they wanted the patents or just to kill the lens competition? The reason I was thinking patents is because there were rumors from Foveon at one point of Canon was using a Foveon type sensor in testing with good results but nothing ever came to the retail market.

Robert