Canon 6D silent mode problems, vibrations at exposure start

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Pau
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Post by Pau »

Peter, thanks for the clarification. I was aware of Mike's flash trigger for EFSC but not about your work in the same direction, now the "mid curtain" expression makes sense.
I do not know how to set 6D to silent mode yet
It's easy: just set Silent mode 1 at the camera menu and EFSC activates when you set Live View (form the camera button or from EOS Utility)
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Post by rjlittlefield »

Pau wrote:Actually these cameras and most recent EOS models make some noise and a very small vibration at the beginning of the exposure in EFSC as I previously posted
True, my statement of "no click and no vibration" was not precise enough. I was comparing against the original poster's description of "I can hear a click and even feel the shake of the exposure start if I put a finger to the camera body". That description sounds to me like at least mechanical shutter action, so my concern (shared, I think, by you and most of the other Canon users in this thread) is that Alex has not yet succeeded in getting the camera to actually use EFSC.

--Rik

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Post by mjkzz »

thanks Pau, got it, I was looking at custom menu for those silent modes.

I think I will try the TRUE electronic shutter on my GH5 where no mechanical movements involved but flash is disabled. Now I miss the Nikon D70 where you can sync flash up to 1/8000th.

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Post by ChrisR »

There's definitely scope for confusion here. It's very possible to feel a movement associated with the shutter-turn-on "tick" noise that some Canon bodies make.
If you fix a phone on the hot shoe with an accellerometer app running, you can compare it with a mirror slap and a mechanical shutter curtain - once you're clear how the camera operates.
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Post by mjkzz »

ChrisR wrote:There's definitely scope for confusion here. It's very possible to feel a movement associated with the shutter-turn-on "tick" noise that some Canon bodies make.
If you fix a phone on the hot shoe with an accellerometer app running, you can compare it with a mirror slap and a mechanical shutter curtain - once you're clear how the camera operates.
Good idea, I tried it with Physics Toolbox on iPhone, the only thing is I got a small blip, maybe I should extend the phone further away to amplify the vibration.

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

ChrisR or anyone else who might know, can you recommend a couple of sensitive vibration-measuring apps for phones?

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Post by mjkzz »

Here are results using PhysicsToolBox on iPhone. For EFCS, the dashed line is where the timer light is off, meaning exposure starts and as you can see, there is no vibration at all at the beginning.

Camera exposure is set to 1 second, just to show vibrations clearly. 2 second timer is enabled so the mirror can settle down and also it will trigger the second shutter required by mirror lockup.

The red line is the vertical axis, the blue line measures front and back vibration when iPhone is placed like the setup. The green line is interesting, it measures left and right movement and it does not change much, suggesting there is little vibration left and right.

I also tried to use the 960fps high speed video feature with my Huawei P20 Pro, but darn, it is so hard to synchronize it with action and it does not have auto detection. So I gave up.

Hope this helps.

Image

Image

Setup
Image

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

Nice demonstration, very definitive. I like your solid set-up as well. I see that you sell that stage. How many microns per one full revolution of the micrometer does your linear stage move in the direction of the lens?

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Post by mawyatt »

Peter,

Thanks for showing this, really does illustrate the camera vibration induced effects of the mechanical shutter vs. the EFCS.

Agree with Lou, looks like a nice solid stage & setup! BTW what clamps are those, ones for Harley??

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

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Post by mjkzz »

@Lou, thanks. No, that one is not for sale, I saw it for 40USD, so I grabbed it, but to complete the setup, I have to get a 80x80 rotary stage for 100USD, in the end, I spent more than I wanted to :-(

@Mike, thanks. no, the clamps are not for Harley, I was so impressed by Robert's setup, so I asked my CNC shop to custom make a few for me, but they charge a minimum order, for 200USD, I can have 15 made, so I went for it. The tube is actually standard Nikon extension tube, so the ID of clamp is 59mm and ID of extension tube is 56mm, enough room for flocking. They did make an adapter for my Canon camera for free :D

Back to topic, I will try again to shoot some slow mo video, maybe not at 960fps, but at 240fps or 180fps with my GH5.

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Post by mawyatt »

Peter,

If you look closely at the shutter response you can see the second order system effects (slight damped ringing). Your setup appears to be very stiff and tight, thus the higher frequency and good damped result.

Not trying to create more work for you as you've already done a great service showing the mechanical & EFCS shutter effects, but would be a good illustrative example to show how effective your nice clamps are. If you mounted your camera/lens combo in the traditional manner (camera base) with lens hanging by camera mount, your vibration results should show a longer more drawn out "ringing" due to the shutter induced vibration.

Anyway, thanks again for showing us the effects of shutter induced vibration and how effective EFCS can be :D

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

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Post by Lou Jost »

We should mention, though, that second-curtain shutter does send vibrations through the subject, similar in amplitude to the mirror slap, and these two impacts per exposure can move non-rigid specimens, particularly things in liquid. For such subjects, a fully electronic shutter and the means to permanently lock up the mirror during a stack are both needed.

I've now epoxied the mirror of my Nikon D5300 permanently up. It doesn't have EFCS but at least the mirror is not flapping around. I mostly use the Oly PEN F with truly silent shutter for my specimens in liquid.

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Post by mjkzz »

Mike,

OK, mounted a Nikkor 200mm f/4 Q lens on the Canon camera and a Mitutoyo 20x, it is so front heavy, I have to add counter weight to balance it. The result is similar though.

The graph of Physics Toolbox does not tell the whole story because

1. the graph shows heavily filtered result, to deal with noise from accelerometer, filter is used, Kalman filter for example, I believe the actual vibration is more violent than the graph shows.

2. the scaling factor is to large, it would be better if the app allows setting of scale. right now, it is a small blip, I guess if amplified, that blip could reveal more details, ie, the ringing part.

We can see that the vibration does not last very long if you count pixels and compare it with 1 second exposure, probably about 100ms.

Image

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Post by mjkzz »

Lou Jost wrote:We should mention, though, that second-curtain shutter does send vibrations through the subject, similar in amplitude to the mirror slap, and these two impacts per exposure can move non-rigid specimens, particularly things in liquid. For such subjects, a fully electronic shutter and the means to permanently lock up the mirror during a stack are both needed.

I've now epoxied the mirror of my Nikon D5300 permanently up. It doesn't have EFCS but at least the mirror is not flapping around. I mostly use the Oly PEN F with truly silent shutter for my specimens in liquid.
I will test the idea of full electronic shutter with my GH5.

I think Nikon has a "delayed exposure" mode that locks up mirror for about one second before exposure, and then there is rear curtain that can be used. I will try it with my D5200, I always thought this is not an issue for Nikons.

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Post by Charles Krebs »

Alex,

The first thing to do is to make certain that you are, in fact, utilizing EFSC. (Based on what you have said, it certainly does sound like you are).

Canon started out great as a low vibration DSLR with the 40D and 50D models. Unfortunately after that it has been a mixed bag. While they make widespread use of EFSC from live-view in their cameras, there is some internal device (either electronic or mechanical) in many of their models that causes a slight vibration. If you set a longish shutter speed and release the shutter from live view (some models require you to set "Silent Mode 1 or 2" to use EFSC) and you hear a slight "scrunch" sound at the exposure start you know that model might have an issue. It is quite variable in effect. All the digital "Rebels" have this faint noise, but the accompanying vibration is extremely small. It seems to be more pronounced with the 60D, 70D, and 80D. There are still some Canon models that have no noise or vibration at the start of such an exposure (as was the case with the the older 40D and 50D). Other than the 1Dx I don't know what models (I believe some or all of the 5D models with live-view may be included, but I am not sure). While this vibration may need to be addressed, it is not as severe as a mechanical shutter curtain.

Long exposures or electronic flash will alleviate it. If you can alter your set-up so there is very little "overhang" front or back from the attachment points it can make a big difference (especially if you can get some mass or a second solid attachment under the camera body itself).

I know how hard it sometimes is to search out this information, but it has been discussed here from time to time:

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=23493
https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... hp?t=30833
https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... hp?t=32412
https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... php?t=7159

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