Minolta DiMAGE Scan Elite 5400 Lens Test at 1.2x

[Smokedaddy]

James,

May be repeating things from others, so sorry if so.

I've found that light source diffusion is required for chip images. A small (30cm) light tent works well as does white styrofoam cups (varying size based on subject).

I haven't tried the Godox plastic dome yet (it's in my cart on eBay), however the cups and tents mentioned have worked well. I use many strobes (Adorama Studio AC 300) to help distribute the light and control the gradient.

Also should mention to make sure you've allowed the focus rail movement, mirror flip (if not using MUP) and shutter vibrations to die off before the flash fires. A long shutter exposure (1~2 seconds) and rear curtain flash trigger can help reduce the curtain vibrations.

Best,

Thanks for the suggestions. I don't own a focus rail system. This is my MM-11. I'm not sure how the flash works with the mirror on the 50D, so I could have something configured wrong. The reason I use the 50D is because there isn't shutter vibration but like I said, maybe the flash changes something, dunno. Robert has help a LOT off line too. I have a dome but haven't tried styrofoam cups yet, just about everything else. The image below is another 100% crop using a dome, flashes and the lens has black shroud around the end (like a dew shield on a telescope). I have the stock Godex diffuser installed (that came with the flashes) on each of the flashes too. The image looked flat so I ran dehaze on it in PS. Naturally I could of missed focus too. This is just a single image, not stacked.

https://squattingdog.smugmug.com/Semico ... -dn2JHqj/A





-JW:

[mawyatt]

Don't know much about Canon, but Nikon's will not work with flash when in fully electronic curtains mode (blocks Hot Shoe trigger). Believe Canon and Sony have similar limitations......maybe someone will report.

If your Canon has rear curtain flash trigger, try a really long exposure (1~2 seconds) with rear curtain mode. I use Delay Exposure of 2~3 seconds, so when camera is triggered the front curtain doesn't rise until after the delay. With a long exposure mentioned the front curtain induced vibration has died down by the time the exposure ends, and right before the exposure ends the flash is triggered. The lighting is such that only the flash exposes the image, not the ambient. This works very well with my D800 which has no electronic curtains at all.

Best,

Mike

[ray_parkhurst]

Don't know much about Canon, but Nikon's will not work with flash when in fully electronic curtains mode (blocks Hot Shoe trigger). Believe Canon and Sony have similar limitations......maybe someone will report.

If your Canon has rear curtain flash trigger, try a really long exposure (1~2 seconds) with rear curtain mode. I use Delay Exposure of 2~3 seconds, so when camera is triggered the front curtain doesn't rise until after the delay. With a long exposure mentioned the front curtain induced vibration has died down by the time the exposure ends, and right before the exposure ends the flash is triggered. The lighting is such that only the flash exposes the image, not the ambient. This works very well with my D800 which has no electronic curtains at all.

Best,

Mike

How do you compose and focus the shot with this technique?

[mawyatt]

Don't know much about Canon, but Nikon's will not work with flash when in fully electronic curtains mode (blocks Hot Shoe trigger). Believe Canon and Sony have similar limitations......maybe someone will report.

If your Canon has rear curtain flash trigger, try a really long exposure (1~2 seconds) with rear curtain mode. I use Delay Exposure of 2~3 seconds, so when camera is triggered the front curtain doesn't rise until after the delay. With a long exposure mentioned the front curtain induced vibration has died down by the time the exposure ends, and right before the exposure ends the flash is triggered. The lighting is such that only the flash exposes the image, not the ambient. This works very well with my D800 which has no electronic curtains at all.

Best,

Mike

How do you compose and focus the shot with this technique?

I set the starting and ending points with Live View with a small remote monitor via HDMI. Either the ISO is cranked up (Auto) in Live View and/or modeling lights (LEDs) are used to allowing image viewing. If modeling lights are used I turn them off when using the strobe flash during the stacking session.

[Lou Jost]

"Believe Canon and Sony have similar limitations......maybe someone will report."

Yes, all have this limitation except Olympus. The Olympus example shows that there is no theoretical limitation on using flash with today's sensors. I am puzzled why the bigger-name manufacturers can figure out how to do it. They seem quite clueless about macrophotography applications for their cameras nowadays.

[Smokedaddy]

I have always shot in 'Silent mode 2' with my 50D with no flash. I have never used a flash with my setup until now. I'm still using 'Silent mode 2'. I also use the EOS Utility which has Live View.

I found a link that Charles put together but I really don't understand everything he wrote even though it was explained here.

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... php?t=8943

It sounds like I would never have shutter vibration issues (under reasonable conditions) using external lighting. That's why I'm using the 50D. However it isn't clear to me if I may have vibration issues using my non-Canon flash setup.

-JW:

[mjkzz]

Don't know much about Canon, but Nikon's will not work with flash when in fully electronic curtains mode (blocks Hot Shoe trigger). Believe Canon and Sony have similar limitations......maybe someone will report.

If your Canon has rear curtain flash trigger, try a really long exposure (1~2 seconds) with rear curtain mode. I use Delay Exposure of 2~3 seconds, so when camera is triggered the front curtain doesn't rise until after the delay. With a long exposure mentioned the front curtain induced vibration has died down by the time the exposure ends, and right before the exposure ends the flash is triggered. The lighting is such that only the flash exposes the image, not the ambient. This works very well with my D800 which has no electronic curtains at all.

Best,

Mike

I do not think Canon has rear curtain mode except with internal flash or in TTL mode. So one way to use the internal flash to trigger others in rear curtain mode. Not even with my 6D

Nikon shooters enjoy rear curtain mode even with D5000's series Nikons, but per your info, in full electronic shutter mode, flash is not supported, so that could be an issue

I also have Panasonic GH5, though I use it as video camera, I did try to use full electronic shutter mode but in vain because it does not support flash in full electronic mode.

I guess one solution is to use the delay circuit you and I built, but I think the real solution is that the stack controller should have a flash/light output so even if the camera does not trigger flash in full electronic mode or does not support rear curtain, it will still work. This is why all of my latest controllers, including Arduino one, have flash/light output.

[mawyatt]

Don't know much about Canon, but Nikon's will not work with flash when in fully electronic curtains mode (blocks Hot Shoe trigger). Believe Canon and Sony have similar limitations......maybe someone will report.

If your Canon has rear curtain flash trigger, try a really long exposure (1~2 seconds) with rear curtain mode. I use Delay Exposure of 2~3 seconds, so when camera is triggered the front curtain doesn't rise until after the delay. With a long exposure mentioned the front curtain induced vibration has died down by the time the exposure ends, and right before the exposure ends the flash is triggered. The lighting is such that only the flash exposes the image, not the ambient. This works very well with my D800 which has no electronic curtains at all.

Best,

Mike

I do not think Canon has rear curtain mode except with internal flash or in TTL mode. So one way to use the internal flash to trigger others in rear curtain mode. Not even with my 6D

Nikon shooters enjoy rear curtain mode even with D5000's series Nikons, but per your info, in full electronic shutter mode, flash is not supported, so that could be an issue

I also have Panasonic GH5, though I use it as video camera, I did try to use full electronic shutter mode but in vain because it does not support flash in full electronic mode.

I guess one solution is to use the delay circuit you and I built, but I think the real solution is that the stack controller should have a flash/light output so even if the camera does not trigger flash in full electronic mode or does not support rear curtain, it will still work. This is why all of my latest controllers, including Arduino one, have flash/light output.

Peter,

Including direct flash trigger as well as independent direct camera shutter trigger in the stacking controller is certainly the best overall solution.

Best,

[mawyatt]

"Believe Canon and Sony have similar limitations......maybe someone will report."

Yes, all have this limitation except Olympus. The Olympus example shows that there is no theoretical limitation on using flash with today's sensors. I am puzzled why the bigger-name manufacturers can figure out how to do it. They seem quite clueless about macrophotography applications for their cameras nowadays.

Lou,

Think I know why the hot shoe flash trigger is blocked under full electronic shutter modes.

During image readout the sensor is only blocked by the equivalent electronic rear shutter. Unlike a true mechanical shutter where no light can penetrate the shutter, and electronic shutter will allow an extremely bright light, like from a flash, to continue to expose the sensor during read out. This could completely mess up the final image, and potentially be harmful to the sensor, although I don't know exactly how (maybe some type of sensor latch-up might take place during readout).

I have experienced the effects of image bleed-thru or ghosting while operating under full electronic shutter mode. This was where the optical flash period extended beyond the closing of the electronic rear curtain. I'm careful now to not allow this to happen.

Best,

[Lou Jost]

Mike, that can't be a fundamental limitation, since the Oly cameras use flash perfectly well with electronic shutter, though synch speed is limited to 1/20 s in my PEN F.

[mawyatt]

Mike, that can't be a fundamental limitation, since the Oly cameras use flash perfectly well with electronic shutter, though synch speed is limited to 1/20 s in my PEN F.

Lou,

There must be a reason that Nikon, Canon and Sony don't allow flash with fully electronic curtains. Could be as simple as they don't want to corrupt any images, whereas Olympus allows the potential to do so, I don't know though.

Don't think Olympus has a special CMOS sensor, they don't have their own fab as far as I know, so I suspect the CMOS sensors they use aren't much different than anyone else uses. If they had developed a much better electronic shutter with higher blocking ability, you would think that they would advertise this.

Maybe limiting the shutter speed to 1/20 second ensures that the flash won't "spill over" during the readout phase since the shutter period is so long?

Your guess is as good as mine.

Best,

[Lou Jost]

All I can say is that the Oly flash files are perfect, no corruption. I think the other manufacturers just don't care enough about this feature. Sony and Nikon always advertise their electronic shutter as a "silent" feature, without emphasizing the absence of shutter vibration, and they may think of flash as violating the purpose of the silent shutter (since a flash is necessarily intrusive and also seldom silent).

[mawyatt]

Lou,

I'm sure if you force the Olympus beyond 1/20 second exposure where the flash period will spill over beyond the rear curtain closure you will see the bleed-thru ghosting artifact, the electronic shutters are just not good enough to block the ultra intensity of the flash. 1/20 second is pretty slow shutter speed considering a typical flash burst is under a few milliseconds, so pretty safe the flash won't spill over. Nikon usually allows 1/250 or even 1/320 second for flash synch with mechanical shutter, and you can still use flash beyond that with mechanical shutters since spill over isn't affecting readout.

Even with a shutter limit of 1/20 second for flash with fully electronic shutter, would be nice to have. So hat's off to Olympus

Best,

[Lou Jost]

Yes, i really like to have the option. I use it often.

[RobertOToole]

Smokedaddy the photos really help.

First off nice I like your setup.

I don't run near that much diffusion, you can run the dome with bare flash or run the diffusers on the flash but I my experience you wouldn't need the done.

The wafers seem to be picky about the light angle.

Also your test crop looks a little OOF, (out of focus). I run a stack, the steps depend on the magnification of course, then zoom into 100% and chose the sharpest one. You might be just a couple microns off of focus.

Hope this helps.

Robert