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camera adapter
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theeb



Joined: 24 Jan 2018
Posts: 6
Location: Minnesota

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:20 pm    Post subject: camera adapter Reply with quote

I'm new to the forum and am curious if anyone has ideas on affordable camera adapters to link my Zeiss Standard (I honestly have been unable to identify it, but it's probably a 14) with a trinocular head (Zeiss number 47 30 15 - 9901) to my Canon T7i camera. The trinocular head came on a scope I bought on e-Bay and put onto my primary Zeiss scope. It has a standard 23.2mm inside diameter. So far, I've only identified a few vendors for adapters and they are quite a bit pricier than I'd anticipated -- over $1000. I've checked e-Bay, but have never found an adapter that appeared to work for my set up, but I'm not terribly surprised. I've come to the conclusion that there are very few manufacturers of these devices for old scopes like mine. I'm returning to microscopy after many years and have found things to be a bit more complicated than I remember. My goal is to produce images that are more on the art side than technical and I've been playing around with crystals formed by letting salt solutions dry on slides under polarized light. I've been very pleased with my initial results and feel there's great potential but I have to get through the search for a decent adapter before I can progress further. Thank you for any help you can provide.
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enricosavazzi



Joined: 21 Nov 2009
Posts: 1068
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you plan to use an afocal setup, I did it on a Zeiss Universal/Photomicroscope. Some of the details differ on a Standard, but the general idea is the same. Also, you will need a lens with different focal length, depending on sensor size (60 mm for full frame, 30 mm for Micro 4/3, somewhere between 40-45 mm for the different APS-C flavors).

http://savazzi.net/photography/zeissadapter.html
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Ichthyophthirius



Joined: 07 Mar 2013
Posts: 803

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

The "47 30 15" should be a trinocular head, 1.25x, with fixed 20/80 beamsplitter and look like this: http://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index.php?topic=26106.msg196233#msg196233 (have a look an see if yours is complete).

There are many ways of adapting an APS-C camera to this, as Enrico mentioned. The challenge is mainly to find a suitable clamp adapter to connect the camera objective to the phototube on the microscope.

Optics needed:
Zeiss Kpl 10x W, Kpl 10x/18 or Kpl 10x/20 high-eyepoint eyepiece ("glasses" symbol)
40 mm camera objective for Canon EF (for example the Pentax-M SMC 40mm F/2.8 or Canon EF 40mm pancake); the camera lens must be very clean

Clamp adapter:
Some kind of clamp (custom-made or modified from pre-fabricated items) that fits over the outside of the phototube and has something like a T2 or M42 thread at the other end so you can connect if to your camera objective filter thread.

For example:
http://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/pictures004/174870_28472036.jpg
http://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/pictures007/215123_13926033.jpg
http://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index.php?topic=20617.0

Regards, Ichty
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Pau
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Joined: 20 Jan 2010
Posts: 4463
Location: Valencia, Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi theeb, welcome aboard!

Take a look at my afocal setups for Zeiss Standard:
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15607 (also look at the second page and to the info and links)
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theeb



Joined: 24 Jan 2018
Posts: 6
Location: Minnesota

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to all who responded! First, I should say that I understood some of what each of you said, but not enough to move forward with a plan. I'm feeling this subject is over my head, so I have some questions for follow up. I'm going to use Ichty's post as the basis for questions.

The "47 30 15" should be a trinocular head, 1.25x, with fixed 20/80 beamsplitter and look like this: http://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index.php?topic=26106.msg196233#msg196233 (have a look an see if yours is complete).

It appears that I have the trinocular head you pictured, but I don't know if the final numbers in the part identification code make a difference (47 30 15 - 9901, instead of the part you cited, 47 30 15). The beam splitter is 20% to the eyes/ 80% to the phototube?

There are many ways of adapting an APS-C camera to this, as Enrico mentioned. The challenge is mainly to find a suitable clamp adapter to connect the camera objective to the phototube on the microscope.

Optics needed:
Zeiss Kpl 10x W, Kpl 10x/18 or Kpl 10x/20 high-eyepoint eyepiece ("glasses" symbol)
40 mm camera objective for Canon EF (for example the Pentax-M SMC 40mm F/2.8 or Canon EF 40mm pancake); the camera lens must be very clean

The scope that I got the trinocular head from had a Kpl W10X/18 "glasses symbol" eyepiece -- will that work?

I found a 40mm Canon EF lens (same as an "objective"?) but since my T7i has a APS-C sensor, wouldn't I need a 40mm EFS lens? Not sure how EF vs EFS works.

You mention it should be very clean -- you mean if I got a used lens or do you have to have a new lens cleaned?

Clamp adapter:
Some kind of clamp (custom-made or modified from pre-fabricated items) that fits over the outside of the phototube and has something like a T2 or M42 thread at the other end so you can connect if to your camera objective filter thread.

This is where I get the most confused -- it appears there are three parts here, one to adapt the tube to the camera, the tube itself, and a part to adapt to the photo tube -- you mean with the eyepiece on or just the 23.3mm ID tube?

Do you have any suggestions about where to find these parts? If on e-Bay, I'm not sure I have any idea how to start such a start -- any suggestions?

To bring it all down to a level I can understand, is the goal to essentially fill the camera sensor, an APS-C sensor in my camera's case, to the greatest degree without creating vignetting? So, if I used my eyepiece and can find the other components, would I be either creating vignetting or would I be reducing the field of view too much?

THANK YOU to any and all answers you can provide -- as you can tell, this is all very new to me and the adapter is the last piece of the "puzzle" for me until I encounter the image processing software.
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Ichthyophthirius



Joined: 07 Mar 2013
Posts: 803

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

47 30 15 - 9901 just means it's a later version (the second version: 00, 01 etc.). So it's 80% of the light to the camera.

The Kpl W 10x/18 is exactly what you need. It needs to be clean and free from delamination. Could you show a photo and measure the outside diameter?

Canon EF 40 mm is what you need. EF lenses fit on EFS cameras, no problem. There is no EFS 40 mm so you have to use the EF version.

It needs to be clean; any dust inside the camera lens (in the very small center area that is used when adapting a camera to a microscope) will show up badly in the photographs. When you buy a new lens, it will be perfectly clean. Old lenses can be a problem when they have dust inside. You need to find a clean lens or get it cleaned.

-------

This is where I get the most confused -- it appears there are three parts here, one to adapt the tube to the camera, the tube itself, and a part to adapt to the photo tube -- you mean with the eyepiece on or just the 23.3mm ID tube?

Yes, it's multiple parts:
- tube
- with clamp to go around the phototube (containing a ring clamp or at least 3 (plastic) screws to clamp on)
- connection between tube and filter tread of the camera lens

This is where you have to get creative. There are many possible solutions. it's easiest if you have access to a workshop but it doesn't sound like it in your case?

(1) get original Zeiss parts (takes some time to locate on Ebay and can be somewhat expensive)
(2) get something together with Ebay parts (e.g. telescope adapters) - doesn't look as good and it isn't as stable but this would be a start
(3) get a custom-built adapter made in a workshop (luxury option)

I don't know any nice and cheap solutions out of the box. What do you prefer?

--------

The combination Kpl W 10x/18 with Pentax 40mm captures the full image diagonale without vignetting. It's the near-perfect option for Zeiss: http://www.mikroskopie-ph.de/index-canon.html
The Canon 40 mm also works well optically but it is more wobbly due to it's plastic/autofocus construction.

Regards, Ichty
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theeb



Joined: 24 Jan 2018
Posts: 6
Location: Minnesota

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your patience with my very limited knowledge base, Ichty. You're a saint for taking on my questions.

I think your bottom line question about nice vs cheap is the critical question for me at this point. The lack of a workshop and understanding of what I'm doing in putting an adapter together may well mean that I have to go with expensive and pre-made by someone else.

I also am apparently further hampered by my (at best) high school level German. Since it's been decades since that, I think that I should say that I can't understand the German website you cited.

I have been looking around for pre-fab solutions and I think the best I've found so far is at: https://www.bestscientificcouplers.com/images/uploads/brochures/Coupler_Brochure_V2.pdf

From this brochure, I'd have to buy the adapter listed on the bottom of page 16 and a camera adapter piece as well as a "J clamp" listed on page 11. Altogether it would cost nearly $800. This is putting my "micrography art" project over budget, but the extremely simple (no lens) adapter I now have creates vignetting that would require significant cropping and loss of pixels. I'd hoped to be able to enlarge the images to 10 X 16" prints, so I suspect that what I have now would not suffice. The pre-fab adapter above would give me much better results than my current set up. So, any feedback on that option would be greatly appreciated. It would result in a 1.6X magnification -- not ideal, but workable. I think.

I apologize for my rudimentary knowledge on this subject, but, based on some of the spectacular images I've created with my simple set up, I think I'm on the precipice of creating spectacular images with a much improved quality in focus and depth of field. I'm very much aligned with the art side of this hobby and hobbled on the technical side. It feels like it's just out of reach right now.
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Pau
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Joined: 20 Jan 2010
Posts: 4463
Location: Valencia, Spain

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that at my afocal thread I linked and at the excellent posts by Ichty and Enrico here you have most the relevant info you need.

Quote:
From this brochure, I'd have to buy the adapter listed on the bottom of page 16 and a camera adapter piece as well as a "J clamp" listed on page 11. Altogether it would cost nearly $800. This is putting my "micrography art" project over budget, but the extremely simple (no lens) adapter I now have creates vignetting that would require significant cropping and loss of pixels. I'd hoped to be able to enlarge the images to 10 X 16" prints, so I suspect that what I have now would not suffice. The pre-fab adapter above would give me much better results than my current set up. So, any feedback on that option would be greatly appreciated. It would result in a 1.6X magnification -- not ideal, but workable. I think.

Be aware that Zeiss 160 finite corrected objectives do need Zeiss compensating eyepieces, being the Kpl type the best ones. Any coupler that do not includes this compensation will produce images with noticeable radial chromatic aberration. Afocal is the right way, in fact most Zeiss original photoadapters of its era are based in the afocal principle.
1.6X is the right magnification for APSC sensors

Did you see my third setup? http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=224647#224647

You can replicate it with a modest budget:
- the lower Zeiss part is often for sale at Ebay (alone or with other parts) at reasonable prices
- The Zeiss dovetail to filter lens thread adapter can be custom made by ebay seller Rafcamera or bought in two parts: a dovetail to M42X1 adapter from him and a M42X1 to your lens thread (52mm in the Canon EF 40 f2.8, I think)
Yo can get the same magnification than with a 40mm lens and Kpl 10X eyepiece with cheap standard 50mm lens a 8X KPL eyepiece.
One member has reported hot spot issues with the EF 40mm while others said that it works great, I've not tried it but I thin that in principle it will be fully adequate.
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Ichthyophthirius



Joined: 07 Mar 2013
Posts: 803

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

To read the website, use Google translate: https://translate.google.com/ (just paste the URL http://www.mikroskopie-ph.de/index-canon.html into the search window and Google will translate the entire website)

I'll have a look and I will work out a solution for (1) or (2), but not tonight Wink

The cost should be below $100 for the mechanical parts!

I still need a photo (even just a link) and outer diameter of your Kpl 10x/18 eyepiece. This determines what mechanical adapter to use.

P.S.: If you have a copy stand http://www.photoinfos.com/Mikroskope/Mikroskop-Fotografie/Reprostativ-Mikroskop-001.jpg you need no further mechanical adapters; that's another easy solution!
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Ichthyophthirius



Joined: 07 Mar 2013
Posts: 803

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pau wrote:
Did you see my third setup? http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=224647#224647

You can replicate it with a modest budget:
- the lower Zeiss part is often for sale at Ebay (alone or with other parts) at reasonable prices
- The Zeiss dovetail to filter lens thread adapter can be custom made by ebay seller Rafcamera or bought in two parts: a dovetail to M42X1 adapter from him and a M42X1 to your lens thread (52mm in the Canon EF 40 f2.8, I think)


Hi,

Yes, that is a great option. I use the same setup on my Zeiss Standard with a Periplan eyepiece.

However, as far as I remember, the Zeiss Kpl is to high for this option, some eyepieces are also too wide (that's why I asked for a photo of the eyepiece).

But you can probably solve this by putting a suitable T2 spacer ring between the RafCamera dovetail adapter and the filter ring. Just a question of working out the correct hight?

Regards, Ichty
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theeb



Joined: 24 Jan 2018
Posts: 6
Location: Minnesota

PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an image of the eyepiece I have.

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Pau
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Joined: 20 Jan 2010
Posts: 4463
Location: Valencia, Spain

PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The eyepiece is fully adequate if in excellent condition like it seems

These are the parts you need to make an adapter like mine:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ZEISS-IKON-1528-MICROSCOPE-ADAPTER-TUBE/151007096498?hash=item2328b96eb2:g:j7cAAOxyhs9RC7xq

https://www.ebay.com/itm/43-5mm-microscope-dovetail-Zeiss-West-to-T2-mount-adapter/142376786985?hash=item2126515c29:g:iuYAAOSw3gJZEIK1

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RISE-UK-52-42MM-52-MM-42-MM-52-to-42-Step-Down-Ring-Filter-Adapter/272837687162?hash=item3f8664b77a:g:lhQAAOSwiYlaAutk

and of course the Canon EF 40mm f2.8 lens or a similar one
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theeb



Joined: 24 Jan 2018
Posts: 6
Location: Minnesota

PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:02 pm    Post subject: camera adapter Reply with quote

Thanks for spelling it out for me, Pau. I'll look over your posts closely and make sure I understand. Also, I forgot to post the diameter of the eyepiece in the photo -- it's about 27mm. Is this consistent with the parts you suggested?
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Pau
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The diameter of your eyepiece fits with no problem, beware that the chromed part of the the adapter I linked is to adapt small sensor cameras or other devices, you're not going to use it, it will be substituted by the Rafcamera's adapter.
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theeb



Joined: 24 Jan 2018
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Location: Minnesota

PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:19 am    Post subject: camera adapter Reply with quote

Thanks Pau! I read over your posts last night, found what I needed on e-Bay and placed orders and a bid. Found out this morning that I won the bid, so in a few weeks I'll be able to put the components together and test.

And just to clarify (learning moment here for me), the chrome component of the adapter was something you retained because you used an eyepiece that was compatible with it, where as the eyepiece I'm using requires the Rafcamera adapter, correct?

Thanks again to all who helped me in this effort! I hope to be posting some excellent images in the coming months.

Theeb
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